1
 1                      TRANSCRIPT OF
 2           MARINE FISHERIES ADVISORY COMMITTEE
 3                 HILTON HAWAIIAN VILLAGE
 4                        (Day One)
 5               South Pacific Ballroom # 1
 6                 Held in Honolulu, Hawaii
 7                           On
 8  
 9                Tuesday, January 11, 2005
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                                                       2
 1                        I N D E X
 2      Ecosystem Approach to Management             
 3      Overview - Taking the Mystery Out - Dr.      
 4      Michael Sissenwine                           62
 5      Ecosystem Goal Team - Jack Dunnigan          86
 6      Fishery Management Council Perspective -    123
 7      Congressional Perspective - Dave Whaley     156
 8      MSA - Magnuson-Stevens Act Reauthorization  198
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                                                       3
 1                                           (9:30 a.m.)
 2            (Tuesday, January 11, 2005)
 3            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Thank you all for 
 4  coming.  I know it's a hardship to come to Hawaii, 
 5  for those of you that live in other places of the 
 6  world, but thank you for making the sacrifice and 
 7  coming to join the MAFAC here in Hawaii.  
 8            It's a great pleasure for me to be with 
 9  you.  I apologize that I have not been able to make 
10  the last set of meetings.  I'm very grateful that 
11  I'm able to do it today.  Again, I thank you for 
12  coming and being a part of this group.  
13            We have I think a very fine agenda today.  
14  A lot of it has been set up by the work that you've 
15  done, and we're going to make more progress with it.  
16  So I'm pleased to be part of it.  
17            I have a few other comments, but I'd like 
18  to turn it over to Laurel for just a second while 
19  it's fresh in your mind to go through some of the 
20  logistics so everybody feels comfortable with the 
21  setup and what we're doing.  
22            (Brief logistical announcement by Laurel 
23  Bryant)
24            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Let me just take a 
25  few minutes for some other comments here before we 
                                                       4
 1  get started.  
 2            First of all, Bill is with us.  I 
 3  appreciate the work Bill has done in standing in for 
 4  me and taking care of the valuable expertise that we 
 5  get from this group.  
 6            I want to assure you that I'm a very 
 7  strong believer in advisory groups, in connecting 
 8  with the public and ensuring that we work with our 
 9  constituents and the people that we serve.  You are 
10  the people that we serve.  There's no reason to have 
11  a government agency unless it does something for the 
12  people.  So that's the ethic that I come from, and I 
13  appreciate the fact that you give up your time and 
14  you provide our connection to the real world to make 
15  sure what we do makes sense, and obviously it's very 
16  helpful.  
17            I also will assure you that I spend 
18  probably 60 percent of my time on fisheries issues, 
19  even though it's 20 percent of the budget.  So this 
20  is an important group, your advice and your 
21  participation is absolutely essential, and I 
22  appreciate it.  
23            Let me acknowledge, first of all, Alvin 
24  Osterback, who has been the Industry Vice-Chair, 
25  Maggie Raymond, the Industry Co-Vice-Chair, for the 
                                                       5
 1  work that they've done the last several years in 
 2  keeping MAFAC meetings on track and productive.  We 
 3  appreciate that, because that's again an extra duty 
 4  and very important.  So thank you, Alvin and Maggie, 
 5  for your hard work.  
 6            I would like to also mention that we have 
 7  several newly-appointed members.  Final approval was 
 8  given.  So these folks are here with us today:  
 9            Dr. Manuel Pizzini, is over here.  Okay.  
10  Stand up.  
11            He's the Director of the Sea Grant College 
12  Program at the University of Puerto Rico, Associate 
13  Dean for Research and Graduate Studies, and a 
14  Professor of Anthropology and Sociology at the 
15  Department of Social Sciences.  So welcome, Dr. 
16  Pizzini.  Glad to have you.  
17            Eric Schwaab.  Eric is right there.  Eric, 
18  good morning.  Welcome.  
19            He's the Director of Resources at the 
20  International Association of Fish and Wildlife 
21  Agencies, and formerly the Director of Natural 
22  Resources for the State of Maryland.  Brings another 
23  great portfolio with him.  Thank you for joining us.
24            Tom Billy.  Tom is over here.  Welcome, 
25  Tom.  
                                                       6
 1            Tom is the President of International Food 
 2  Safety Consultants.  Previously served with the 
 3  federal government for 39 years, most notably with 
 4  USDA Food Safety and Inspection Service, very 
 5  important to us, in the development of the Hazard 
 6  Analysis and Critical Control Point, HACCP, systems 
 7  to improve seafood safety.  An area that I think we 
 8  need to do more on, quite frankly.  
 9            Anyway, thank you for your willingness to 
10  serve.  As I said, it's final.  You're in.  So you 
11  can't get out now.  (Applause)  
12            Okay.  We're going to spend -- let me just 
13  tell you, I'm caught between several different 
14  things.  The last two weeks we've been tsunami-ing 
15  it.  Okay.  That's been a huge issue, and it still 
16  is.  In fact, I had to stay back in Washington 
17  yesterday because of the White House meeting on 
18  tsunamis.  So that's been a big issue with NOAA.  
19            You're also competing this week with the 
20  AMS, the American Meteorological Society, another 
21  big constituency of the NOAA family.  So I have to 
22  spend some time with them as well.  
23            Today the competition with tsunamis is 
24  such that Senator Stevens is here touring the 
25  Tsunami Warning Center.  So I have to go out to 
                                                       7
 1  that, leave around lunchtime.  So I am with you for 
 2  the morning.  So, please, give me your feedback.  
 3  Please, join in the conversation.  
 4            Again, the fact that I can't stay here for 
 5  the full time is not any indication of my interest 
 6  or emphasis and priority on the importance of what 
 7  the group does.  So please accept that as the 
 8  unfortunate facts of life.  
 9            We're going to be working on 
10  ecosystem-based approaches to management for the 
11  morning and for most of the day.  But there will be 
12  an aquaculture section at the end.  I will mention a 
13  couple words about aquaculture in my remarks, which 
14  I want to -- and I appreciate the work that's been 
15  done there.  
16            Obviously, I appreciate the ecosystem 
17  paper that was done by the group.  
18            So with that, let me go around the room 
19  and everyone can introduce themselves and 
20  re-acquaint each other.  Why don't we start down 
21  this end of the table.  
22            MR. FISHER:  I'm Randy Fisher.  I'm the 
23  Executive Director of the Pacific States Marine 
24  Fisheries Commission in Portland, Oregon.
25            MR. HOGARTH:  Does that mean you're living 
                                                       8
 1  in your old house since I see you here? 
 2            MR. FISHER:  Right now I have two houses 
 3  that I'm paying for.  
 4            MR. HOGARTH:  Okay.  
 5            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  What a good deal.  
 6            MR. FISHER:  Better than having two wives.  
 7  (Laughter)  
 8            MR. LEIPZIG:  Pete Leipzig with 
 9  Fishermen's Marketing Association.  
10            MR. MOON:  I'm Mel Moon.  I'm the Director 
11  of National Resources for the Quileute Indian Tribe 
12  in Washington State and also Commissioner with the 
13  Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission.  
14            MR. DILERNIA:  I'm Tony Dilernia.  I'm the 
15  Director of Marine Technology for the City 
16  University of New York.  I'm also a 35-year-old -- 
17  35 year operating a charter.  
18            MR. BILLY:  Tom Billy.  I've been 
19  previously introduced.  
20            MR. KENT:  Don Kent.  I'm a marine 
21  biologist and President of the Hubbs-Sea World 
22  Research Institute.  
23            MR. FLETCHER:  I'm Bob Fletcher, President 
24  of the Sportfishing Association of California and 
25  represent about 175 passenger sportfishing boats in 
                                                       9
 1  Southern California, some of which you will be 
 2  meeting with tomorrow.  
 3            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Yes.  Look forward to 
 4  it.  
 5            MR. KRAMER:  I'm Rob Kramer.  I'm the 
 6  President of the International Game Fish 
 7  Association.  
 8            MR. BURNS:  I'm Scott Burns.  I'm the 
 9  Director of the Marine Conservation Program for 
10  World Wildlife Fund.  
11            MR. DORSETT:  Chris Dorsett with the Ocean 
12  Conservancy in San Francisco.  
13            MR. WHALEY:  I'm Dave Whaley with the 
14  House Resources Committee.  
15            MS. LENT:  Rebecca Lent, Deputy for 
16  Regulatory Programs and Fisheries.  
17            MS. BRYANT:  I'm Laurel Bryant, Executive 
18  Director for MAFAC.  
19            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Conrad Lautenbacher, 
20  NOAA Administrator.  
21            MR. HOGARTH:  Bill Hogarth.  
22            MR. OSTERBACK:  Alvin Osterback.  I'm Port 
23  Director for the City of Unalaska and the Chair the 
24  Aleut Marine Mammal Commission.  
25            MS. RAYMOND:  I'm Maggie Raymond.  I own a 
                                                      10
 1  groundfish vessel in Maine.  I work as staff for 
 2  Associated Fisheries of Maine.  
 3            MR. SISSENWINE:  Mike Sissenwine, the 
 4  Director of Scientific Programs for NOAA Fisheries.  
 5            MR. DUNNIGAN:  Jack Dunnigan with NOAA.  
 6            MR. FORSTER:  I'm John Forster.  I'm an 
 7  aquaculture consultant.  
 8            MR. PIZZINI:  Manuel Pizzini, University 
 9  of Puerto Rico.  
10            MR. O'SHEA:  Vince O'Shea, Atlantic States 
11  Marine Fisheries Commission.  
12            MR. SCHWAAB:  Eric Schwaab.  
13            MR. GILMORE:  Jim Gilmore with the At-Sea 
14  Processors Association.  
15            MR. COOK:  Jim Cook with Pacific Ocean 
16  Producers in Honolulu.  
17            MR. ROBERTS:  Ken Roberts, Louisiana State 
18  University.  
19            MR. RAYBURN:  Ralph Rayburn with the Texas 
20  Sea Grant Program.  
21            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Okay.  How about the 
22  back row?  Maybe we could just walk down there.  
23            MR. MAHOOD:  Bob Mahood, Executive 
24  Director of the South Atlantic Fisheries Management 
25  Council.  
                                                      11
 1            MR. DANIEL:  Louis Daniel, Chair of South 
 2  Atlantic Fishery Council.  
 3            MS. MADSEN:  Stephanie Madsen, Chair of 
 4  the North Pacific Council.  
 5            MR. OLIVER:  Chris Oliver.  I'm the 
 6  Executive Director of the North Pacific Council.  
 7            MS. SALVESON:  Sue Salveson, NOAA 
 8  Fisheries, Alaska.  
 9            MR. POOLEY:  Sam Pooley, Pacific Islands 
10  Fisheries Science Center here in Honolulu.  
11            MR. PINEIRO:  Eugenio Pineiro, Caribbean 
12  Fisheries Management Chair.  
13            MR. ROLON:  Miguel Rolon, Caribbean 
14  Fisheries Management Council, Executive Director.  
15            MR. BLOUNT:  Frank Blount, New England 
16  Council Chair.  
17            MR. HOWARD:  Paul Howard, Executive 
18  Director, New England Council.  
19            MR. HENDRIX:  Joe Hendrix, Vice-Chairman, 
20  Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council.  
21            MR. DAVIS:  Gerry Davis, Pacific Island 
22  Regional Office, Habitat.  
23            MR. MORIOKA:  Roy Morioka, Western Pacific 
24  Regional Fisheries Management Council, Chair.  
25            MR. LONGNECKER:  John Longnecker, NOAA.  
                                                      12
 1            MS. BARTLETT:  Nicole Bartlett.  I'm here 
 2  on detail at the Science Center working with the 
 3  HMRFS data.  
 4            MR. DARBY:  Forbes Darby, NOAA Fisheries.  
 5  I'm the National Recreational Fisheries Coordinator.  
 6            MR. REISNER:  Gary Reisner, I'm NOAA 
 7  Fisheries CFO.  
 8            MR. WONG:  Paul Wong, NOAA's Hawaiian 
 9  Islands Humpback Whale National Marine Sanctuary.  
10            MR. ROBINSON:  Bill Robinson, Regional 
11  Administrator, Pacific Islands Region here in 
12  Honolulu.  
13            MR. COLLINS:  I'm Andy Collins from the 
14  Northwestern Hawaiian Islands Coral Reef Ecosystem 
15  Reserve.  
16            MR. SAVAGE:  Rick Savage, Mid Atlantic 
17  Council.  I'm 35 --
18            MR. FURLONG:  Dan Furlong, also 35, Mid 
19  Atlantic Council.
20            MR. ORTMANN:  Dave Ortmann, Vice-Chair, 
21  Pacific Fishery Management Council.  
22            MR. ATRAN:  Steven Atran, on the staff of 
23  the Gulf of Mexico Fishery Management Council.  I'm 
24  filling in for our Executive Director, Wayne 
25  Swingle, who can't be here because of a conflict 
                                                      13
 1  with a council meeting this week. 
 2            MS. GOO:  Wendee Goo, Public Affairs, 
 3  Pacific Islands Region.  
 4            MR. HELM:  Gordon Helm, Constituent 
 5  Services, NOAA Fisheries.  
 6            MR. PAYNE:  I'm Mike Payne, Protected 
 7  Resources, National Marine Fisheries Service in 
 8  Silver Spring.  
 9            MR. HOFF:  Tom Hoff, Mid Atlantic Fishery 
10  Management Council staff.  
11            MR. BROWN:  Ralph Brown, Pacific Coast.  
12            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Very good.  Thank you 
13  all.  It's a very distinguished group, as you can 
14  tell.  I'm delighted to be part of this.  
15            Bill, would you like to --  
16            MR. HOGARTH:  Just a couple words, because 
17  I know time wise I'll get to say more as this week 
18  goes on, and your time here is limited.  
19            But I just wanted to take the opportunity 
20  again to thank every one of you for coming.  We have 
21  a very strong working relationship, I hope, with 
22  MAFAC now.  We've really tried to build it up and I 
23  think the input we've gotten has just been 
24  excellent.  We want to see this even get stronger. 
25            We invited the councils to this meeting, 
                                                      14
 1  the Regional Fisheries Management Councils, for 
 2  several reasons.  One, we had the opportunity to get 
 3  them in one spot with MAFAC and the Executive 
 4  Directors and Council Chairs, and we thought it was 
 5  important for this discussion, particularly as we 
 6  started our movement on ecosystem -- continue our 
 7  movement on ecosystem-based management.  
 8            Also, as we looked at this year, 2005, and 
 9  all the activities, particularly Magnuson-Stevens 
10  Reauthorization.  
11            So we want to thank the Council Chairs and 
12  Executive Directors for coming, and thank MAFAC for 
13  sharing with them.  We hope this is -- and we expect 
14  it to be a very good discussion today and the rest 
15  of the week.  The Council Chairs and Executive 
16  Directors are invited to be here for all the things 
17  they'd like to attend.  
18            I just say I think we're making lots of 
19  progress in fisheries, and we're making it because 
20  of people like you who are willing to serve and help 
21  us this week to move forward.  We have some very big 
22  issues I think in 2005, and I think we're ready to 
23  address those issues and move forward.  So I thank 
24  all of you for taking the time.  I look forward to 
25  talking to you and working with you this week.  
                                                      15
 1            It's really nice to have the Admiral come.  
 2  The Admiral has been very interested in trying to 
 3  get -- has been very instrumental in getting NOAA to 
 4  be NOAA.  As you noticed, as we go around the table, 
 5  some of us still say NOAA Fisheries, but most of us 
 6  say NOAA, as we try to get rid of these stovepipes 
 7  and become one NOAA.  I think he's worked very hard 
 8  at that, and I think you see a lot of fruit coming 
 9  to bear along those lines.  
10            We have to work together if we're going to 
11  solve these issues that we have before us.  So we're 
12  glad to have him here.  We're glad to have him give 
13  you a talk this morning and then listen and 
14  participate in the ecosystem part.  
15            So, Admiral, thanks. 
16            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Thank you, Bill.  
17  Appreciate it.  
18            This morning will be spent on talking 
19  about ecosystem approaches or ecosystem management  
20  approaches in light with our strategic plan, which 
21  you participated in, in the trail that we've been on 
22  for a number of years in this area.  I think it's a 
23  unifying theme.  
24            Those of you that know me realize that I'm 
25  always looking for ways to get people together and 
                                                      16
 1  build larger consensus and ways to try to advance 
 2  our issues.  
 3            Remember that the NOAA constituency is  
 4  relatively small communities when you look at the 
 5  size of our nation and you look at the other things 
 6  that go on in our country.  It is important that if 
 7  we're going to be heard that we work together and we 
 8  try to build a consistent voice and some consensus 
 9  on issues that -- and I think there's a lot of 
10  consensus, both between the NGOs who are working on 
11  the hard side for environmental, as well as the 
12  people who are making their living directly from the 
13  sea.  
14            I do not believe that we should be at 
15  odds.  I think there are many, many principles that 
16  we can agree on and that we can work together to try 
17  to advance our society.  
18            In the end, I think most of us have the 
19  same ideas in our hearts and our minds.  So I 
20  appreciate the diverse group of people that we have 
21  today, and the willingness of all of you to work 
22  together.  
23            I'm going to try to set the stage on this 
24  ecosystem-based management theme, and then we're 
25  going to have a panel.  We'll take a break somewhere 
                                                      17
 1  in the middle of the morning to ensure --- so if 
 2  you're drinking coffee, don't worry about it.  We'll 
 3  take a break.  
 4            Okay.  Go ahead.  Just hit the next slide 
 5  so I won't -- wow, see, we have the best techies.  
 6  We've got five videos going there for you to watch.  
 7            I'm going to talk for just a minute about 
 8  NOAA.  As Bill said, we've tried to unify NOAA.  
 9  Again, for the same reason that I said before, we 
10  have relatively small communities.  And also, 
11  today's challenges, today's problems that we need to 
12  meet for the future, of taking care of six billion 
13  people on this planet, and even the 300 million we 
14  have in the United States, which is sort of a 
15  round-off number when you look at the world 
16  population.  We have huge challenges that can only 
17  be solved by working together.  
18            Cross-disciplinary types of issues, that's 
19  NOAA's mission, understanding and predicting changes 
20  in the earth's environment, particularly the ocean 
21  and the atmosphere.  
22            But, of course, an issue that we're all 
23  concerned with here, conserving and managing coastal 
24  and marine resources for our nation's economic, 
25  social and environmental needs.  A full panoply of 
                                                      18
 1  issues.  
 2            So that's our mission.  It's very 
 3  important.  
 4            In the last three years we have worked to 
 5  break our stovepipes and try to focus ourselves on 
 6  the large issues that society faces and try to solve 
 7  them.  We can only solve them by bringing everyone 
 8  together.  They're not in the purview of one 
 9  particular university, one particular science and 
10  one particular group of special interests.  
11            We'll talk about that first one, 
12  protecting, restoring and managing the use of 
13  coastal and ocean resources through ecosystem 
14  management is a unifying theme for the entire -- as 
15  a baseline, just a baseline, the entire wet side of 
16  NOAA.  
17            But it also brings in everything else 
18  because it's connected to the physical side of the 
19  atmosphere as well.  You have climate variability 
20  and change.  You know what a huge issue that is 
21  today, both politically and scientifically.  
22            Serving society's needs for weather and 
23  water.  Water is perhaps one of the biggest issues 
24  the world faces in terms of how to deal with the 
25  future.  
                                                      19
 1            Finally, we are in the Department of 
 2  Commerce and we are the underpinning of commerce.  
 3  NOAA's products are responsible directly for 30 
 4  percent of the GDP, or over three trillion dollars, 
 5  based on the kinds of information that we provide 
 6  for the nation.  So there's a reason why NOAA is in 
 7  commerce.  
 8            Of course, sound transportation, air, sea 
 9  and land, depends on understanding the environment 
10  that we're in.  
11            So that's how we organized ourselves.  We 
12  are organized to meet mission requirements.  We're 
13  not organized in this administrative sense.  We 
14  should think about our ability to work and solve 
15  these issues, not in Fisheries, Weather, the Ocean 
16  Service, the Research Branch.  Those are divisions 
17  that have particular functional products that we put 
18  together to solve those problems.  So that's our 
19  real organization.  
20            I can tell you we've tried to back that 
21  up, put our money where our mouth is, so to speak.  
22  So these are the people that are responsible for 
23  those challenges that are outlined on the first 
24  slide.  I want to make sure people understand 
25  there's some teeth behind this.  
                                                      20
 1            So those four goals that I've just talked 
 2  about have a single person in charge.  So if you 
 3  want to know about how we're going -- what we're 
 4  doing and where we're going in those areas, you 
 5  don't think, gee, do I call Fisheries, do I call the 
 6  Weather Service, do I call the Research Branch.  
 7            No, you call the people that are in charge 
 8  of solving those problems.  
 9            Jack Dunnigan for Ecosystems, who is here 
10  today with us.  
11            You see the names of the other people, and 
12  they're very distinguished, long-term civil 
13  servants, that have amassed a great deal of 
14  knowledge and I think credibility within their 
15  communities over the years, and I'm delighted we 
16  have them serving with us in these capacities.  
17            As I told our Internal SES audience, these 
18  are our royalty.  These are the four kings of NOAA.  
19            Then they have programs.  You see their 
20  program manager names; for Habit, Corals, Coastal 
21  Resources.  But those are the programs.  
22            Now, the interesting thing is, are those 
23  the right programs?  I would tell you probably not.  
24  But that's what I inherited.  Okay.  But we need to 
25  change that.  I'm not sure that's the right 
                                                      21
 1  breakdown.  
 2            But every dollar in NOAA is assigned into 
 3  these categories, and the support slide.  So every 
 4  dollar inside of NOAA is assigned to those program 
 5  managers and those goal leads, to work the 
 6  end-to-end problem.  What is the problem we're 
 7  solving, what roles do each of those programs play, 
 8  how are they integrated, and what are the outcome 
 9  measurements that we have to decide whether we're 
10  successful or not.  That's the way we're organized.  
11            Now, can I tell you that the culture has 
12  changed immediately to do this.  Of course, not.  It 
13  takes time to change an organization from the one it 
14  was in when I arrived three years ago to one where I 
15  think it can be, and basically it is internally 
16  generated.  
17            I didn't invent this system.  It was 
18  invented by our leadership and our SES, Senior 
19  Executive Service, leaders.  They've put a great 
20  deal of their own capital on the line to try to make 
21  this work.  
22            So if you think of NOAA and think of our 
23  structure and what we're doing, please think of it 
24  in those terms.  Because that's where the meat is.  
25  That's where the beef is.  
                                                      22
 1            I want to talk about a few issues now that 
 2  relate to the topic this morning.  Again, I'm going 
 3  to focus on ecosystem, that first theme from our 
 4  four major strategic management challenges and 
 5  societal problems that we're working on.  
 6            You should all be aware of the Ocean 
 7  Commission.  I think most of you are.  
 8            The U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy 
 9  completed its work.  They turned their report in a 
10  little too late to affect directly the budget that's 
11  being developed this year.  But I think we have a 
12  chance in the future to affect it.  We did -- we 
13  were able to mobilize the federal government and put 
14  out an answer to the Ocean Commission 
15  recommendations.  There's some 212 recommendations I 
16  think that they have in their portfolio.  
17            We published the Ocean Action Plan on 
18  December 20th -- well, actually it was due on 
19  December 20th.  We did it on December 17th, which 
20  was a good day, and you can see, because we got the 
21  President.  
22            The President spent a half hour with 
23  Admiral Watkins going over our response to it, as 
24  well as the people that you see there.  That's Don 
25  Evans, my boss, and then that's Jim Connaughton, and 
                                                      23
 1  Lynn Scarlet, who was representing Secretary Norton 
 2  from Interior.  She's Assistant Secretary of 
 3  Interior.  Admiral Watkins is on the right, the 
 4  Chairman of the Board.  
 5            So I want to tell you that I think we have 
 6  some good visibility going.  We have the interest of 
 7  the President.  We certainly have the attention and 
 8  the interest of Jim Connaughton, who is the Chairman 
 9  of Environmental Quality and is a very big player in 
10  bringing interagency groups together on this.  
11            So I encourage you to take a look at that.  
12  I'm going to talk about it in -- not in full detail, 
13  but as we go along there's a few things I want to 
14  mention that are in there that are important to you.  
15            Now, the federal government had 90 days to 
16  answer 212 recommendations covering A to Z.  It's a 
17  large report.  Has an awful lot of different 
18  subjects in there, from fisheries management, to 
19  mapping and charting and ocean observing and 
20  research.  It goes across the gamut, and 
21  transportation.  All the issues that are associated 
22  with the oceans.  
23            One of the primary -- in fact, probably 
24  the most important recommendation out of the Ocean 
25  Policy Commission was this recommendation for a new 
                                                      24
 1  governance system.  I think when you read that you 
 2  will see that basically we got the President and the 
 3  White House to go along with that recommendation.  
 4  So there is now a cabinet-level group set up, a 
 5  point of contact that works for the President 
 6  directly that's responsible for coordinating ocean 
 7  policy matters.  
 8            As you can see, that would be Jim 
 9  Connaughton, who's the chair.  Members, it's like 
10  the NST, the National Science and Technology 
11  Committee, and the Environmental Quality Council, et 
12  cetera.  It's a cabinet-level group of all the major 
13  advisors to the President.  
14            It then has underneath of it what is now 
15  its equivalent to sort of the NORLC, has a little 
16  bit different composition, but it's basically a 
17  working group of -- for instance, I will be on that.  
18  That will be Agency Heads and Deputy Secretaries 
19  that serve on that group.  
20            Then underneath of it will be two groups, 
21  they are new names, but one will be charged with 
22  science and technology, and that will be under the 
23  NSTC, double-hatted for the Joint Subcommittee, 
24  NSTC, the National Science and Technology Council. 
25  Jack Marburger runs that, the President's Science 
                                                      25
 1  Advisor.  
 2            And then a completely new group, which 
 3  talks about the ocean resource management.  This 
 4  will be a very important one because it is the first 
 5  time that we've gone into an interagency working 
 6  group on management, on operations in the ocean.  It 
 7  will be very important on how we set that up.  
 8            There will be a FACA Committee advising 
 9  that middle block.  You can see that's what the 
10  expanded ORAP is, that's an acronym that comes from 
11  the National Ocean Partnership Program Act.  It's an 
12  advisory panel of scientists.  It will have to be 
13  expanded to include people who do operational 
14  business.  
15            Certainly fisheries management is one of 
16  those issues.  
17            Then you have it attached to the National 
18  Security side of the world, that's what you see on 
19  the other side.  The NSC, National Security Council 
20  Policy Coordinating Committee.  PCCs are big in 
21  Washington.  That's where a great deal of 
22  interagency work is done, and it brings in the State 
23  Department and our ability to work overseas with 
24  international interests.  
25            So this is a brand new framework agreed to 
                                                      26
 1  by the President.  Puts it right in the White House, 
 2  and it gives us an opportunity to do things we've 
 3  never done before.  I think it's an important step 
 4  in the right direction.  
 5            Basically, everything that was not 
 6  answered in the 212 recommendations has been laid on 
 7  this group to answer.  There have been some 
 8  deadlines set for research and for some of the other 
 9  policy matters that are recommended by the Ocean 
10  Policy Commission.  So if you're not satisfied with 
11  that initial report for 90 days, we have the 
12  opportunity to -- of course, it doesn't cover 
13  everything, but it covers it by setting up this 
14  group and charging this group with doing the work.  
15            Obviously, the proof is in the pudding; 
16  can we make it work, will it work, will there be 
17  enough interest in it.  I believe NOAA is the 
18  driving force behind this.  I don't mean NOAA 
19  myself, I mean the organization and its place.  So 
20  to a certain extent it's up to us in this room to 
21  make sure it works.  We have the ability to drive 
22  this, to talk to the people that are on here, to get 
23  involved with this expanded FACA Committee, as you 
24  are with MAFAC here at the Commerce level, and to 
25  ensure that we do the things we need to support this 
                                                      27
 1  national level framework.  
 2            I already mentioned that.  
 3            The fourth bullet is important.  Obviously 
 4  I'm a strong believer in federal, state, local and 
 5  regional cooperation.  I believe it is a mixed 
 6  model.  The federal government cannot legislate and 
 7  do everything in this country.  It has to be done by 
 8  the people who live in the regions and areas.  So 
 9  there's a natural partnership.  
10            This action plan stresses that, and I 
11  think the Administration is dedicated to that.  
12            We're interested in exploring some of the 
13  opportunities that are in the Ocean Action Plan to 
14  have better regional cooperation and coordination, 
15  and in my view build a bigger tent of people who can 
16  come together to solve some of these challenges that 
17  I mentioned on my first slide, for our strategic 
18  plan. 
19            So that's an important piece of it.  
20            Fisheries-related items that are in that 
21  report.  Obviously, the ecosystem approach to 
22  management is big in the report.  For those of you 
23  that haven't looked at it, it is big.  
24            I view it as a unifying theme that can 
25  bring all of us together.  I want to build on what 
                                                      28
 1  we've done.  This is not tearing down or just 
 2  throwing aside everything that has happened.  
 3            This is an evolutionary process that we've 
 4  been working on.  Ecosystem approaches to management 
 5  have been in process for years.  I'm going to talk 
 6  about that in a few minutes.  
 7            Regional Ocean Councils.  That's a 
 8  recommendation that was very strong in the Draft 
 9  Ocean Policy Commission Report.  It talked about 
10  setting up Regional Councils that would be bigger 
11  than Fisheries Management Councils.  It didn't 
12  really describe how the Fisheries Management 
13  Councils fit into that system, but it talked about 
14  building bigger councils.  
15            After they received a lot of comments on 
16  it, many of which I'm sure came from constituencies 
17  that are represented around the table, it was pulled 
18  back a little bit, to let's have a little bit 
19  go-slow approach on that.  Let's look at pilot 
20  programs.  Let's look at ways to deal with this that 
21  makes sense and not rush into something that, first 
22  of all, nobody can articulate, understand or 
23  describe.  
24            I can't, and I don't know whether anybody 
25  else here can either.  
                                                      29
 1            But this is a new area.  So that's a place 
 2  where we're going, and we need to approach in a 
 3  measured way.  But the people in this room can help 
 4  to deal with that issue and it can help us in NOAA 
 5  and the federal government deal with it.  
 6            Obviously, this one you're familiar with.  
 7  Market-based approaches to fishery management.  They 
 8  are obviously supportive of IFQs and ways to improve 
 9  our ability to ensure that we have safe fishing, 
10  that we have better ways to manage our plans that 
11  help fishermen and take into account the complexity 
12  of the regulations we have today, and eliminate some 
13  of that and do it on a market-based approach.  
14            Recreational fishing data.  This is an 
15  issue which comes up.  I know I'll be talking about 
16  it when I go to California tomorrow and see some of 
17  our friends in California who are in the 
18  recreational fishing area.  
19            That's an important piece of area of 
20  recommendation in the Ocean Policy Commission 
21  Report, and we are very serious about doing that.  
22            I put this Southeast Aquatic Resources 
23  Partnership up there because there's a setup in the 
24  Southeast now that includes both Fishery Management 
25  Councils and other regional groups, as sort of a 
                                                      30
 1  pilot.  So here's a chance where the federal 
 2  government didn't dictate this on some kind of fiat 
 3  from Washington.  It was something that was formed 
 4  of the need, people felt the need to do it.  
 5            So here's an area where we can look at 
 6  ways to build this bigger tent, to get people 
 7  together to work on solving some of these problems 
 8  and use the great benefit that we already have from 
 9  the work that's been done for years with our Fishery 
10  Management Councils in regional management for an 
11  important resource for the country.  So that's an 
12  interesting opportunity here.  
13            Ecosystem.  I've talked about this in many 
14  different places.  First of all, I think it's 
15  misunderstood.  I think the terms get used with 
16  abandon in many cases, and people pick up what they 
17  want to hear on ecosystem-based management.  It 
18  comes down I think to sort of a fundamental problem, 
19  we need to start from the beginning, we need to 
20  define what we're talking about.  
21            So I asked my group to define it.  It took 
22  them a long time to do, but they did it.  So there's 
23  a definition.  
24            Now, we can argue about that, and we 
25  should argue about the definition.  But you need 
                                                      31
 1  some baseline to start from.  
 2            I think NOAA is the place that can 
 3  crystalize that kind of discussion.  It's a central 
 4  focus in our country for the kinds of management 
 5  issues that are associated and incorporated in the 
 6  ecosystem approach.  
 7            So this is what we came up with.  I think 
 8  it's a pretty reasonable description of what it is. 
 9            First, it's geographic.  You've got to 
10  talk about it geographically.  There are going to be 
11  arguments about what geographic bounds are.  
12            This is not perfect.  And it isn't going 
13  to be perfect.  
14            There are going to be political 
15  constraints as well as there are geographical 
16  constraints and real ecosystem food chain 
17  constraints and migration of resources in and out of 
18  areas.  So it's not perfect.  
19            But we have to come to some kind of an 
20  agreement on how that works.  
21            And then we have to take a look at the 
22  other pieces in the approach.  It's adaptive.  It's 
23  regional.  It takes account of knowledge, 
24  uncertainty, multiple external influences, which are 
25  all there.  It strives to balance diverse societal 
                                                      32
 1  objectives.  Those points.  
 2            What I want to say to you, if you look at 
 3  that very quickly, you're going to say, well, that's 
 4  not much new, we've been doing that.  We have been.  
 5  We do that today.  So this is not something that 
 6  just dropped down out the sky, we're all of a sudden 
 7  going to stop what we're doing and we're going to 
 8  start off on some new approach.  It's something 
 9  that's been happening.  
10            I'm going to point that out to you as we 
11  go along and describe some of the problems.  
12            Okay.  Now what has been happening in 
13  action.  Let's talk about things that are already in 
14  there.  Fishery management plans today include 
15  bycatch and habitat considerations.  They are 
16  ecosystem factors.  When you're not catching the 
17  kind of fish or critters you want to catch, and 
18  you're disturbing some other part of the 
19  environment, we already today take that into 
20  account.  The Fishery Management Councils do it and 
21  we talk about it inside MAFAC.  
22            Habitat has obviously been brought in an 
23  evolutionary sense into our Magnuson-Stevens Act and 
24  into our thinking and into our science.  So habitat 
25  considerations, there are obviously big concerns.  
                                                      33
 1  There's a lot of lawsuits about it.  There's a lot 
 2  of controversy, but it's in there and we're dealing 
 3  with it right now.  
 4            We actually have plans in the Northwestern 
 5  Hawaiian Islands Coral Reef Management Plan.  Here 
 6  is a plan that is going to be an ecosystem kind of 
 7  total approach.  There's no question about it.  
 8            There's been a lot of collaboration with 
 9  the councils in terms of dealing with science and 
10  dealing with the fishery management plans as to what 
11  makes sense for these kinds of issues.  
12            So this is a continuum, and we're working 
13  on it.  
14            So here is an interesting one.  The 
15  herring fishery.  If you look at the herring fishery 
16  on the West Coast, this is a predator/prey 
17  relationship which you have to take into account.  
18            It's an interesting one because bluefin 
19  tuna obviously feed on herring.  So if you catch 
20  more herring, then do you -- what is the bluefin 
21  quota problem and what does that fishery look like 
22  for optimum yield.  
23            Also cod fish feed on small herring.  So 
24  you've got a groundfish connection to herring as 
25  well.  So if you take away herring, you disturb the 
                                                      34
 1  groundfish area.  
 2            On the other side of it, herring actually 
 3  feed on cod larvae.  So now you have double, which 
 4  -- how do you optimize that?  How do you deal with 
 5  that?  
 6            It's an economic issues as well as a 
 7  biological issue.  
 8            Now, I'm not the guy to tell you that 
 9  we've solved that yet.  We haven't solved all these 
10  problems yet.  
11            But those are the things that come up, and 
12  you can't avoid them because the management councils 
13  are dealing with that today.  
14            We have to deal with bluefin quotas.  We 
15  have to deal with cod fish and we have to deal with 
16  herring.  So it's there.  You can't ignore it and 
17  it's something -- there's the other thing there.  
18  Lobster traps use herring bait.  So you catch 
19  herring and you catch lobster.  So you've got that 
20  tied in with it, too.  
21            So you can't avoid it.  Those are things 
22  that if we can work on scientifically and we can 
23  work on together from a management sense, we'd make 
24  a lot of progress I think in solving some of these 
25  controversies that we have.  
                                                      35
 1            Now, you're not going to do this 
 2  overnight.  This is a hugely complex problem.  This 
 3  is just a manifestation of the food chain in the 
 4  area in this one small regime that we're talking 
 5  about here.  
 6            But we've got to start, and you can't 
 7  start -- you've got to continue.  You can't all of a 
 8  sudden come in say, oh, it's too big, I can't deal 
 9  with it.  You've got to take it one step at a time. 
10            You can deal with some of these things and 
11  you can work up a logical progression to get to a 
12  higher level.  So I'm not suggesting that we start 
13  all of a sudden with a huge model of how everything 
14  works in a particular water column in an area and 
15  say instantaneously we all of a sudden have magic 
16  that gives us new knowledge.  
17            This is an evolutionary process.  We have 
18  to define some of the most important of these 
19  relationships and see what we can learn about them 
20  and work up in a gradual way.  
21            This is an interesting one, too.  
22            The last one I showed you is an example of 
23  mixing between species and of life in a water 
24  column.   This is one that shows you that we already 
25  take into account physical oceanography, physical 
                                                      36
 1  ocean conditions in concert with our fisheries 
 2  management.  
 3            The California/Oregon drift gillnet 
 4  fishery, because it interferes with the leatherback 
 5  and loggerhead, these are turtles that are on the 
 6  Endangered Species List, and obviously we have to 
 7  manage both issues from the laws that we have.  
 8            So from good observer data and looking at 
 9  the problem, we know that most leatherback 
10  interactions occur -- optimize in the October time 
11  frame.  Therefore, close the fishery at that point, 
12  and now we've reduced the interactions by over 70 to 
13  75 percent, just by that single act.  That allows 
14  the fishery to be managed productively, as well it 
15  solves our Endangered Species Act.  
16            In the loggerhead side of it, it's 
17  directly dependent on El Nino.  We know the 
18  loggerheads follow the warm water.  They follow in a 
19  certain area.  If you close it during the El Nino 
20  years, when the ocean is warming, you end up, again, 
21  taking out a huge interaction problem that you have 
22  between a fishery and loggerhead turtles.  
23            So that's just an example of what's out 
24  there today.  We do that today.  And that's 
25  certainly an ecosystem approach.  
                                                      37
 1            This is an interesting one.  The North 
 2  Pacific climate regimes and ecosystem productivity.  
 3  It's a research issue that's going on today.  It 
 4  talks about trying to figure out -- I think most 
 5  people will agree that the Pacific Decadal 
 6  Oscillation is real.  That it has definite changes 
 7  in water characteristics, and that then affects 
 8  primary productivity and the change in the 
 9  temperature also affects where the fish go because 
10  their food moves and their comfort zone that they 
11  like to live in moves as well.  
12            So here's a biophysical monitoring network 
13  that tries to look at physical data, biological data 
14  and gives the opportunities for people managing 
15  fisheries in the North Pacific a way to deal with 
16  the fact that the ocean conditions are changing.  
17            Now, we don't have enough information to 
18  predict the status of the Pacific Decadal 
19  Oscillation.  Many people thought it was a two-state 
20  process.  It's either one state or another state.  
21            Now, there's evidence it's at least a 
22  three-state process, and there may be more.  But we 
23  don't -- I'll get on to global observing that we 
24  need to kind of solve those large problems.  
25            But obviously knowing more about that 
                                                      38
 1  helps us manage the living marine resources that are 
 2  in the area.  Very important.  Let me give you some 
 3  of the figures here.  
 4            If you're able to get this qualitative 
 5  idea of warming.  For instance, the warming of the 
 6  Bering Sea Shelf leads to retreat of cold water 
 7  species, like snow crab, and the advancement of warm 
 8  water species, pollack.  If you can get some 
 9  quantitative information, for example, the Bering 
10  Sea, if it warms by 1.5 degrees centigrade, the 
11  pollack population will move 100 kilometers north 
12  and increase by 20 percent.  So that obviously 
13  affects the kind of management plan you want to put 
14  into effect.  
15            Similarly, snow crab will move 200 
16  kilometers northward because of these changes, and 
17  will decrease by 50 percent.  So you can't -- and 
18  fishermen know that.  You can't always go out to the 
19  same area every year and find the same fish.  
20  There's reasons for that.  
21            The object is to find out these reasons 
22  and to get ahead of it and be able to predict it.  
23  So this is an enormously promising area I believe.  
24            Communication.  Communication here means 
25  just talking with each other.  I'm not talking about 
                                                      39
 1  setting up internets and satellites, and all that.  
 2            I'm talking about real-life communication 
 3  between people, between people in different 
 4  segments.  People that do the science.  People that 
 5  do the management.  People that are in government.  
 6  People that are in the private sector, from -- 
 7  certainly from our science.  We talked about that 
 8  earlier this morning, with the Fishery Management 
 9  Council people.  
10            We need this connection and communication.  
11            It's hard to do.  NOAA doesn't do it 
12  perfectly.  I don't think anybody ever will do it 
13  perfectly, but we are interested in working on it, 
14  and that's why we are here today.  
15            So I encourage you to keep talking, 
16  writing letters, talk to each other, talk to us.  
17  Let's keep building the bridges that are going to 
18  bring this together.  
19            Federal/state jurisdictions.  That's 
20  another area for communications, and building the 
21  bridges.  
22            We have to -- if we're going to manage on 
23  an ecosystem basis, we really have to ensure that 
24  we're going down the same path.  This adds even more 
25  of a challenge.  
                                                      40
 1            I realize we work on this today.  So 
 2  again, I'm not saying this is brand new.  But this 
 3  is something where I encourage us some thoughtful 
 4  consideration of how we do this better.  
 5            Vessel monitoring systems, I think have a 
 6  great deal of promise.  You could probably call me a 
 7  techie, I guess, but observers are important.  I 
 8  don't think there will ever be a time when we can 
 9  eliminate the human observer from the loop.  At 
10  least, I don't foresee that.  You always need a 
11  human in the loop.  
12            But there's an awful lot that we can 
13  gather from better vessel monitoring systems.  I 
14  think everybody knows this is the black box that 
15  tells you right now where a ship is located and 
16  provides it 24/7 to a command center on shore so we 
17  can figure out and mange where ships are and what 
18  they're doing.  
19            But there will be ways that we can gather 
20  data and get better data, which supports the bottom 
21  line.  The research that solves real problems, real 
22  questions that you come up with, builds better 
23  models, models that help us to provide and build 
24  better plans.  
25            And data.  You've got to have the data.  
                                                      41
 1            I think I'll just make mention of the 
 2  report that MAFAC submitted on ecosystem management 
 3  in 2003.  I appreciate that.  I think it fits in 
 4  nicely with what's going on, and is a big help to 
 5  Bill and to our Ocean Council, as well as Fisheries 
 6  and Ocean Service.  
 7            Okay.  Let's move on to the next one.  
 8            I'm going to give you a plug for Global 
 9  Earth Observing Systems.  The acronym that we have 
10  now internationally is GOESS, the Global Observing 
11  Earth System of Systems.  Because it is a system of 
12  systems.  You cannot monitor the earth without 
13  thinking of all the different kinds of biological, 
14  physical and chemical and seismic systems.  
15            Obviously the one right on the top, 
16  natural and human-induced disasters.  We all have 
17  had a huge lesson in that thanks to the tsunami in 
18  the Indian Ocean.  
19            If you don't believe we need a global 
20  observing system, just go over and look at some of 
21  the beaches around the Indian Ocean.  A global 
22  observing system could have warned enough people, we 
23  probably could have saved 90 percent of the people 
24  or more with the proper kinds of warning.  There's 
25  no doubt in my mind about that, and there was 
                                                      42
 1  nothing in place in the Indian Ocean that allowed 
 2  that to happen.  
 3            Right now we have 53 nations.  A new 
 4  nation joined as a result of this, and four more 
 5  want to jump in a global group on earth observations 
 6  and international collaborations to set up a global 
 7  earth observing system.  
 8            Obviously, one of the greatest benefits is 
 9  protection from natural hazards and human-induced 
10  disasters, for that matter.  
11            But it goes -- if you move over to the 
12  right and you come into where we're concerned today, 
13  fisheries management, and we'll talk about the 
14  terrestrial, coastal and marine ecosystem types of 
15  monitoring.  
16            The system -- we participate in this room 
17  in global observing.  We have ships.  We have 
18  humans.  We have people, our fishery ships.  Our 
19  catch data.  All that kind of stuff is an incredibly 
20  important observing system and needs to be 
21  coordinated on an international basis.  Because 
22  obviously highly migratory species are a world 
23  management problem, but even our own management in 
24  our 200-mile EEZ depends on understanding global 
25  data and the interaction across boundaries that are 
                                                      43
 1  set politically, but not set by nature.  
 2            So all of these things are going to be 
 3  affected by our ability to observe and understand 
 4  the earth and provide data of the status of where we 
 5  are to policy-makers around the world.  We're 
 6  working on it.  
 7            I hate to see the suffering in the Indian 
 8  Ocean.  It's a terrible, terrible tragedy that 
 9  didn't need to be.  But I am hopeful that that will 
10  provide incentive to policy-makers around the world 
11  to get together to share data.  
12            The biggest problem is we don't have 
13  nations that want to share data.  They're very 
14  protective.  I don't want to name any names when 
15  we're sitting in the room here.  But it is hard to 
16  get people to want to share data because they view 
17  it as a national prerogative and they're very 
18  distrustful.  This is a huge political and people 
19  challenge to get -- the technology is there.  We can 
20  hook computer to computer across the world.  We can 
21  set up fiber optic networks and satellites and we 
22  can provide instantaneous downloads around the world 
23  on just about anything.  But you can't get the 
24  people to agree to do it.  
25            Hopefully, this is going to be an 
                                                      44
 1  incentive for that to happen.  
 2            Here's some of the things that better data 
 3  can help provide, and improve it.  
 4            Commercial and recreational catch 
 5  statistics are important.  Stock assessments are 
 6  enormously important.  We don't get enough data to 
 7  do those at the right levels.  I don't think I need 
 8  to belabor that in this room with everybody who's 
 9  around.  
10            Observer program.  I already made my 
11  comments on that.  The observers are critically 
12  important around the world.  We can get more 
13  technology involved in it, but we still are going to 
14  need humans to do some of this work.  
15            Standardized sampling gear.  Remember, 
16  NOAA Fisheries survey vessels are 40 years old.  For 
17  the first time we've been able to get a new survey 
18  vessel.  By the way, we took delivery of it just two 
19  weeks ago, the OSCAR DYSON.  Brand new Fisheries 
20  Service, world-class survey vessel that's quiet, has 
21  all the latest sampling techniques on it.  Advancing 
22  in this direction I think is going to really help 
23  us.  
24            I also believe that we can do more with 
25  the fishing industry as well, for having 
                                                      45
 1  standardized sampling gear.  There can be more 
 2  sources of information in standardized data that can 
 3  be used and people can participate in.  
 4            Obviously oceanographic and lower trophic 
 5  level data in our food chain is extremely important.  
 6  Taking surveys of not just fish, but of all of the 
 7  levels from zooplankton, to phytoplankton on up.  
 8            That's a wonderful ecosystem -- 
 9  (Laughing).  
10            See, you put it all together and that's 
11  the problem.  You see that slide and everybody 
12  throws up and says, (Laughter) we can't do that.  
13            But take it one at a time, look at each 
14  piece of it and look at what we're doing.  There are 
15  examples in every region around our country today 
16  where we are taking into account one or two of those 
17  things, and doing it pretty well.  So it's not 
18  totally hopeless.  
19            Now, the other thing I like about this for 
20  fisheries, and for everybody else, is the fact that 
21  this, in my view, is a full ecosystem.  Because if 
22  you look up on the left-hand side, it includes the 
23  human species.  Cannot have an ecosystem approach 
24  without the human species.  You've got to deal with 
25  that in some way, and you've got to recognize it 
                                                      46
 1  explicitly and stop trying to -- I'm not preaching 
 2  to this choir, but there are a lot of choirs that 
 3  want to ignore it or don't take it into account.  
 4            We're here and we're in everybody's food 
 5  chain.  We're the most adaptable species on earth.  
 6  We can live in the Arctic or the Antarctic or the 
 7  tropics.  We're everywhere.  
 8            So we are part of everybody's ecosystem in 
 9  some way, and you've got to deal with it.  
10            That's a nice picture because it shows you 
11  quite a bit of the physical, chemical, biological 
12  and human species part of this.  
13            I think there's just one more.  
14            Yeah, I just wanted to mention 
15  aquaculture.  We're not going to get a chance to 
16  talk -- I'm not going to be here when you're dealing 
17  with it, but I think this is an important area to 
18  work on.  
19            I realize it's a red flag for a lot of our 
20  wild-harvest fishermen in a lot of our regions.  
21            I'd like to get over that.  Remember that 
22  the fishing industry is basically a seven billion 
23  dollar trade deficit.  Seven billion dollar trade 
24  deficit from fishing.  
25            Now, the people that are here in this room 
                                                      47
 1  can figure out how to fix that, and part of the 
 2  answer is in aquaculture in some way, or mariculture 
 3  -- call it mariculture.  
 4            We are trying to work this problem 
 5  internally in the government very hard.  I think we 
 6  made some progress this year in getting some 
 7  consensus among the agencies that deal with this, 
 8  like Agriculture and Interior and Commerce.  We're 
 9  trying to put together a bill to have some sort of 
10  legislation that will make sense out of this area 
11  and provide economic opportunities while providing 
12  what I would call very sound environmental 
13  management as well.  
14            As you see, provides environmental and 
15  other safeguards.  So this is an important area to 
16  work on, and we shouldn't just ignore it.  It's a 
17  huge issue economically, providing jobs and business 
18  opportunities.  
19            It's a huge environmental challenge for 
20  sustainable fisheries and quality of life, standard 
21  of living for everybody that lives in our coastal 
22  zones.  
23            Okay.  I think that's it.  
24            Okay.  So that's it with my pitch.  Let me 
25  see if there's any -- we're going to go into -- this 
                                                      48
 1  is sort of a round table panel work at this point, 
 2  but let me stop for a second and see if you have any 
 3  questions for me directly on any of the material 
 4  that puzzled you or you'd like some clarification on 
 5  things that I said, and don't be embarrassed.  
 6            Yes, sir.
 7            MR. LEIPZIG:  Question on ecosystem 
 8  management.  Pete Leipzig.  
 9            Do you believe that there's legislation 
10  necessary to embark upon ecosystem management?  Or 
11  is the framework already in place to go forward with 
12  it, the Fishery Management Councils and the Fishery 
13  Service, NOAA?  Or do we need legislation?  
14            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  I believe there's  
15  enough legislation.  
16            Now, I don't believe we have a perfect set 
17  of laws under which we work.  So let me say, we are 
18  always looking for ways to improve that legislation.  
19  But I think we have a framework in the legislation 
20  that we have today that we can work on the things 
21  that I've talked about.  
22            That doesn't mean that in the future you 
23  wouldn't want to try to get some of these 
24  overlapping sets of laws that we work on more in 
25  tune with ecosystem-based approaches.  
                                                      49
 1            MR. LEIPZIG:  I raise the question because 
 2  there has been legislation introduced be it through 
 3  Magnuson --  
 4            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Right.  
 5            MR. LEIPZIG:  -- which requires certain 
 6  steps to be taken.  I'm just questioning whether 
 7  that's necessary.  
 8            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  I think we have to be 
 9  very careful about each one of those and look at  
10  them individually.  
11            We have in the last couple of years gone 
12  through Magnuson-Stevens and tried to provide some 
13  what we believe improvements, and then based on 
14  information that we get from you, as well as from 
15  all of our communities that serve NOAA.  
16            So, yeah, I think we should continue to 
17  work on legislation.  I don't want to sit here and 
18  say, we shouldn't have any more legislation.  But I 
19  think we can work while we're doing that.  
20            Does that help you?  Or is that too 
21  nebulous?  
22            MR. LEIPZIG:  Well, I'm looking for what 
23  the Administration's position would be, on whether 
24  or not additional requirements to move in this 
25  direction are necessary?  Or do we have enough 
                                                      50
 1  guidance already in the framework available to us to 
 2  just go do it?  
 3            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Yeah.  Let me ask 
 4  Bill, because he's the last guy that knows -- is the 
 5  expert on the review of what we've turned in.  We 
 6  have turned in some improvements that will help with 
 7  the ecosystem, but we're not finished with it.  
 8            Bill, you want to jump on that for a 
 9  second?  
10            MR. HOGARTH:  I personally think we have 
11  enough to do it.  I think internally right now we're 
12  going to work with the councils and look at some 
13  guidelines and criteria to make sure that we're 
14  focusing all the councils in a consistent manner.  
15            One thing we need to keep looking at, I 
16  think we look at EFH and some of the broad mandate 
17  that EFH brought and some of the problems we saw 
18  with it.  I think we're trying to learn from that, 
19  Pete, to see if we do need some clarification in 
20  Magnuson.  
21            But I think we have what we need to move 
22  forward.  I think we would like to work on some 
23  guidelines, criteria internally with the councils, 
24  but look -- we want to make sure that we don't get a 
25  mandate like we got with Essential Fish Habitat that 
                                                      51
 1  comes back to bite us.  Okay.  
 2            MR. LEIPZIG:  I support that.
 3            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Okay.  Let me mention 
 4  -- I don't want to cut off discussion on this, but 
 5  part of what we're about today is to talk about that 
 6  exact question; what should we recommend, what are 
 7  ways to get at recommendations, and things like 
 8  that.  So it's a good point you raise and we want to 
 9  keep that thread going.  
10            Tab 2 in your book, I'm told.  Okay.  All 
11  right.  So that's good.  
12            MR. KRAMER:  Rob Kramer, International 
13  Game Fish Association.  
14            Admiral, with the publication of the U.S. 
15  Ocean Action Plan and all the attention it's been 
16  getting, do you envision new revenue sources and 
17  budget streams to help support some of these?  
18            Having come from government, I've seen 
19  that happens a lot.  
20            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Yeah.  Our problem is 
21  -- let me tell you, there is no -- in my 35 years of 
22  working budget problems, there's no magic way to get 
23  kind of a whole new funding source drop down. 
24            Every once in a while lightning strikes, 
25  but that's -- I don't think it's going to strike 
                                                      52
 1  here.  I think it's up to us to work hard to 
 2  advertise where we need help and where there are 
 3  benefits to society and where there's real economic 
 4  value, and put our foot in the door and try to push 
 5  it open and get in.  
 6            I think you will see in our FYO6 budget 
 7  that we've been able to do some of that.  But you're 
 8  not going to see -- you know, the Ocean Commission 
 9  said double research.  So you're not going to see 
10  research double.  
11            I mean, people aren't going to do that 
12  without kind of, what is your plan, why do you want 
13  to double it, what kind of benefit are you going to 
14  provide for us.  
15            So right now we're going to build a 
16  research plan and we're doing the spade work to get 
17  the foot in the door to produce the kinds of -- and 
18  use the Ocean Commission recommendation as a way to 
19  get there.  
20            So I will tell you people will be probably 
21  disappointed if they expect to see huge new revenue 
22  sources or more money in the budget based on the 
23  Ocean Commission Report.  
24            First of all, it came out too late.  It 
25  was behind the eight ball.  As soon as the pressure 
                                                      53
 1  was off of the Administration to respond after the 
 2  election, you lost a lot of the political leverage 
 3  that society might have liked to see on that.  
 4            But that doesn't mean it isn't there and 
 5  it can be used.  We got into the Oval Office and we 
 6  got the President to sign this and talk about these 
 7  issues.  I can assure you that he is very interested 
 8  in managing fisheries.  He's a rec fisherman and he 
 9  wants to see management.  He wants to see management 
10  of fisheries so that we have it for people and we 
11  have a good environment in which not only 
12  recreational fishermen can be involved, but the rest 
13  of the public can.  So that was very enlightening to 
14  me.  
15            I think that's a good sign for us in this 
16  community.  
17            MR. DILERNIA:  Admiral, currently most of 
18  our fisheries are under some type of fishery 
19  management plan.  As we transition towards an 
20  ecosystem approach, those plans will either have to 
21  be modified, replaced.  
22            I was wondering, have any plans or areas 
23  or regions in the country been identified for an 
24  experimental attempt in ecosystem management before 
25  we go into it fully?  
                                                      54
 1            Because clearly, we would have to take a 
 2  couple stabs at it, a couple tries and experiments 
 3  before we will be able to do some type of 
 4  conversions?  
 5            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  I think that's a good 
 6  question.  
 7            Again, Mike Sissenwine is going to be 
 8  providing some more information on it.  
 9            But let me say -- I want to iterate this 
10  again, I don't see any kind of huge change.  
11            Now, we may for -- I would call it -- 
12  public affairs purposes, say, voila, we're now in 
13  ecosystem management, here's an example of it.  
14            The plans that we have today, first of 
15  all, do continually change.  They're continually 
16  amended, they're modified.  And in most cases 
17  they're amended and modified because we have new 
18  ecosystem-based factors that come into play.  
19            Then we say, oh, we've got to do something 
20  because you've got crabs that eat oysters and so 
21  you've got to -- I mean, it's all there.  It's 
22  already kind of -- it's working its way in.  
23            I view it as almost a public affairs kind 
24  of point at which we say, voila, where's the eco -- 
25  you put a stake, and you have drums and bugles and 
                                                      55
 1  flags and say, we're there, because we're doing it.  
 2            I don't see any kind of magic that is 
 3  going to drop down and all of sudden we're going to 
 4  change every plan to some ecosystem-based management 
 5  -- some new way of doing it, because we're doing it.  
 6            I view it as a continuum, and it's just 
 7  getting better as we get more information and it 
 8  will become more and more advanced.  
 9            As far as I'm concerned, it could still be 
10  single species.  Single species doesn't mean it 
11  doesn't have an ecosystem-based approach to it.  
12  Obviously, you will have connections with other 
13  plans and you'll work into maybe multi-plans and -- 
14  a more comprehensive plan, I guess I would call it.  
15  But single species can be ecosystem-based 
16  management.  
17            We're looking for examples to have the 
18  drums and the bugles and the flags to talk about it 
19  at some point.  
20            MR. HOGARTH:  Tony, probably every council 
21  sitting around the room has got some form of 
22  ecosystem type plan going on right now.  
23            I think one of the things we want to talk 
24  to them about more, and get this dialogue going is 
25  we've done a lot of Programmatic EIS.  You can take 
                                                      56
 1  a Programmatic EIS and very easily turn it into an 
 2  ecosystem plan and then fold your fisheries 
 3  management under it, for example.  
 4            So that's why we need this dialogue now 
 5  with the councils on guidelines, sort of how we're 
 6  going to do this.  
 7            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Good point.  
 8            MR. HOGARTH:  So we don't have to come at 
 9  this with a hodge-podge of one council doing it one 
10  way and another council doing it another way.  We 
11  want everybody to look at these as ecosystem plans 
12  and to have some consistency in how we go about it.  
13            I think there are lots of things going on 
14  right now, personally, that can be done.  It may 
15  identify some areas that we need further research 
16  for things, but I think it will still be that 
17  approach, an ecosystem approach.  
18            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Good question.  
19            MR. SCHWABB:  Thank you.  Eric Schwabb.  
20  Thank you, Admiral.  
21            Can you put up the slide where you talked 
22  about areas for improvement, and you talked about 
23  federal/state jurisdictions.  
24            I guess my question, when you look back, 
25  for example, at some of the earlier work that this 
                                                      57
 1  Commission did with the ecosystem report, talked 
 2  about the need for particular fisheries agencies at 
 3  both those levels, and more, to reach out to some of 
 4  our nontraditional partners, regulatory agencies, 
 5  the inland and upland agencies like USDA that played 
 6  a big role in what's going on in coastal habitat 
 7  conditions.  
 8            I just wondered, when you talk about those 
 9  jurisdictional interactions, how do you see that 
10  conversation as -- how do you see its importance and 
11  how do you see it unfolding with respect to at the 
12  federal level, groups like the EPA and USDA, and 
13  some of the important roles they can play?  
14            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Right.  And I think 
15  that's a good question.  
16            I see it in -- there's two opportunities 
17  here.  
18            First of all, I'm the co-chair of what is 
19  called the Committee on Environment and National 
20  Resources, an interagency group under the science -- 
21  under Marburger.  So it's attached to the White 
22  House, an interagency group.  
23            We have an ecosystem committee -- I forget 
24  what the exact title is.  Somebody here will 
25  probably know.  
                                                      58
 1            But it is an opportunity to get the 
 2  federal agencies together.  
 3            What I found out now is that everybody has 
 4  a different idea of what the ecosystem is.  The 
 5  issue we're starting here, let's at least in NOAA 
 6  get a definition of what it is.  
 7            So I want to take it to the federal 
 8  Washington level and get the head of the EPA, 
 9  Agriculture, Interior, where we sit around the 
10  table.  There was some good interest in the last 
11  meeting that we had.  So there's that opportunity.  
12            Then there's the opportunity that you've 
13  talked about, and then I think that is empowered to 
14  a certain extent by the Oceans Commission, which 
15  allows us to bring in these nontraditional partners.  
16            But keeping in mind what we're involved in 
17  here, which is an economic and social basis for 
18  improving our quality of life and standard of 
19  living.  So it's not designed to throw away 
20  everything we've done, but bring these people in.  
21  Here's an opportunity to build on what we already 
22  know how to do in Regional Fishery Management 
23  Councils that we have today, and bring in these 
24  other factors, which are very important, as you 
25  said, at the regional level.  
                                                      59
 1            I have encouraged NOAA to form regional 
 2  groups.  So we do have -- in some areas you can call 
 3  a NOAA person who actually knows how to contact 
 4  somebody in the Weather Bureau and in the fisheries 
 5  organization, instead of calling one or the other.  
 6  So we're trying to do that, too, have regional NOAA 
 7  resource pools that you can go to for anything you 
 8  need with NOAA.  
 9            The same thing ought to be for this area 
10  we're talking about here when we talk about 
11  attaching fisheries management to water quality and 
12  coastal zone management, et cetera.  
13            Good point.  
14            MR. HOGARTH:  Scott.  Then I think we need 
15  to get into the panel.  
16            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Yeah, I think we need 
17  to get the panel going.  
18            MR. BURNS:  Thank you, Admiral. 
19            As you point out, the evolution towards 
20  ecosystem-based management is an iterative process.  
21  it's been done for quite a length of time.
22            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  For many years, yes.  
23            MR. BURNS:  How can NOAA work with the 
24  councilS to identify the most strategically 
25  important next pieces of the puzzle to work on; and 
                                                      60
 1  what, if anything, can we all do to encourage 
 2  learning across the various councils as we move 
 3  forward?  
 4            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  I think that's a 
 5  question that you all are going to have to answer 
 6  more than I can answer.  
 7            I want to answer our half of it.  The 
 8  connection to building the bridges for the 
 9  communication is important.  Do we have workshops?  
10  Do we have public meetings?  Do we have national 
11  meetings?  Or what kind of mechanisms can we have to 
12  spread the word and also build the underpinning to 
13  make sure that we're doing the right things, as well 
14  as advertising.  
15            So I'm not sure we have the answers to 
16  that yet.  I'm looking to this group and looking to 
17  our Fishery Management Councils and internally 
18  working together, because we all love to work on our 
19  own stovepipes.  We work very well there.  But this 
20  issue of getting together and ways to do it.  
21            Now, we've got a couple things going.  
22  We've got an SAB review of ecosystem research, which 
23  is getting together outside experts.  I hope there 
24  will be some interest from people around here in 
25  your organizations to get people on that panel to 
                                                      61
 1  look at how we do ecosystem-based science.  So here 
 2  is an opportunity to connect.  
 3            Bill is planning another -- NOAA is 
 4  planning another what I call big fish meeting in 
 5  March to get everybody in the community again in to 
 6  Washington to start talking together.  I think a 
 7  great deal is gained by getting all the partners and 
 8  players in to talk.  So there's another mechanism.  
 9            I think we see needs from each of the 
10  organizations that we talk to to be involved.  
11  Whatever we can do within the limits of the law, 
12  what we're allowed to do pre-decisional, and all 
13  that, we want to do.  So I'm encouraging people to 
14  suggest mechanisms in helping us work that problem.  
15            I think I'd like to move into the next 
16  panel section, and then we can take a break after we 
17  get started with that.  
18            We have four folks that are going to give 
19  us some of their comments and ideas coming from 
20  their part of the pie, so to speak.  Because this is 
21  a big picture item, and we have to have 
22  collaborative work across a number of different 
23  programs and disciplines.  
24            So the first speaker on that is Dr. Mike 
25  Sissenwine.  He's the Director for Science for NOAA 
                                                      62
 1  Fisheries, and was also my representative for the 
 2  Ocean Research Leadership Council, cuts across all 
 3  of NOAA and is, I think, as you well know, world 
 4  renown in his ability to take on the problems we 
 5  have in fisheries management.  
 6            So Mike will you -- he's right up there, 
 7  he's ready to go.  He's loading his computer.  So I 
 8  will turn it over to Mike for a few minutes.  
 9            I urge you to look at Tab 2, and you can 
10  see the questions that we have for discussion there 
11  so you can sort of couch some of the comments.
12            (Ecosystem Approach To Management - Taking 
13  the Mystery Out) 
14            MR. SISSENWINE:  Let me just start off by 
15  commenting that there will be some redundancy in my 
16  comments.   There are comments I've made to MAFAC 
17  before, to comments you've heard from the Vice 
18  Admiral, and comments you'll hear from Jack.  
19            I think that's a good thing.  It says 
20  we're talking to each other.  
21            I also think some of the key messages 
22  we're dealing with do have to be repeated over and 
23  over again so that we really get a grip on it.  So I 
24  apologize for what may seem redundant, but I think 
25  in some cases it's actually useful.  
                                                      63
 1            The other thing I'll comment on is I 
 2  wanted to put together a talk that would have broad 
 3  use to a lot of us in the community to get across 
 4  this message of, there is a lot going on already.  
 5  So I asked the various field people in the Agency,  
 6  the Regional Administrators and the Science 
 7  Directors to collect up some examples that they 
 8  viewed as ecosystem approaches.  
 9            As a result, I've got about 150 slides 
10  today.  We're not going to go through those all.  
11  There are a number of them in this PowerPoint 
12  presentation that are going to flash by as if it 
13  were a motion picture.  
14            I still think the fact that we have that 
15  material could prove very useful to all of us if 
16  there is times in the future -- and I consider it 
17  sort of a common property resource -- for talks that 
18  I hope many of us will be giving on where we are in 
19  terms of an ecosystem approach.  
20            I do want to recall that MAFAC had a 
21  recommendation for NMFS to begin the long-term 
22  process toward an ecosystem approach and the report 
23  of the Ecosystem Task Force in San Diego, 14 May, 
24  2003.  So we're marching down that path.  We're 
25  following your advice.  We were following your 
                                                      64
 1  advice before you gave it.  This is all consistent.  
 2            So I want to quickly talk about what it is 
 3  we're talking about in terms of an ecosystem 
 4  approach, what is happening now and some next steps.  
 5            Okay.  I did first want to mention some 
 6  things that I think at times may tend to set us 
 7  down, set us back or do hiccups in this dialogue, 
 8  and just identify them to you.  
 9            On of them is that there is the ambiguity 
10  about whether people are talking about an ecosystem 
11  approach to fisheries or they're talking about an 
12  ecosystem approach to whole ecosystems.  I think 
13  that in fact we are talking about both.  We should 
14  be talking about both.  We are evolving in the 
15  positive direction with both.  
16            But when we're discussing a particular set 
17  of action, we need to be clear of which one we are 
18  applying those actions to.  We need to always keep 
19  our eye on the ball of having these things proceed 
20  in a harmonious fashion so that ultimately we do 
21  converge to fisheries ecosystem approaches being 
22  consistent with a broader interest system approach.  
23            The second general comment that tends to 
24  cause a hiccup is, I don't know how many of us -- I 
25  know I've been guilty of it -- have gone into a 
                                                      65
 1  meeting and said, we need an ecosystem approach, but 
 2  I don't know how to do it yet.  That really does 
 3  derail the dialogue.  I think we need to keep on 
 4  trying with a positive message that we are doing it 
 5  and we are moving in the right direction.  
 6            It's natural that people push back on 
 7  various things that are new, and doubt us.  I think 
 8  we should just accept it.  That's the way the world 
 9  is.  We need to maintain our resolve.  We clearly 
10  need to, in our case within NOAA, redouble our 
11  commitment to engage stakeholders and we need to be 
12  very realistic that there isn't one-size-fits-all.  
13            So those are sort of my comments on 
14  hiccups that may derail us at times, and I think we 
15  need to keep those in the back of our mind at all 
16  times.  
17            So what's at stake?  I do view that 
18  there's a lot at stake in terms of going forward 
19  with an ecosystem approach.  Its integrity.  The 
20  countries of the world have made a commitment in the 
21  World Summit on Sustainable Development to move 
22  towards an ecosystem approach.  The NOAA Strategic 
23  Plan made that commitment.  Various of us have been 
24  involved in dialogues that have made that 
25  commitment.  
                                                      66
 1            I also take it as a point of honor.  I 
 2  think that those of us that have been involved in 
 3  this community really should be proud of what we're 
 4  doing.  We are moving towards an ecosystem approach, 
 5  and let's be proud of it, demonstrate it and discuss 
 6  it and improve on it.  
 7            Then finally, in terms of what's at stake, 
 8  I think there is the opportunity to be leaders.  I 
 9  hope we will all be part of that process of being 
10  leaders.  
11            So what's it all about?  I think there are 
12  some key messages that are common sense.  We're 
13  trying to take account of ecosystem knowledge and 
14  uncertainties.  We're trying to balance diverse 
15  social views.  We're preserving options for future 
16  generations.  These are all clear within the NOAA 
17  definition that Vice Admiral Lautenbacher gave you.  
18            Clear point is that this an incremental 
19  process.  It's not prescribed out.  
20            When someone says we have an ecosystem 
21  approach, they're not saying this is what the 
22  outcome would be.  What they ought to be saying is 
23  that this is the process that we want to participate 
24  in to consider these common sense elements.  
25            There is no right or wrong answer.  It's 
                                                      67
 1  what comes out of the process.  
 2            Again, evolutionary, not revolutionary. 
 3  You'll hear that phrase from a lot of people.  We 
 4  all agree with it.  
 5            I do want to point out that it's not just 
 6  a few folks in NOAA that are using that phrase.  It 
 7  actually evolves from a lot of discussions that were 
 8  going on internationally with people like Serge 
 9  Garcia from FAO, Jake Rice from Canada.  I mention 
10  those names in part because they deserve some credit 
11  for thoughts like this.  
12            But what's probably more important is it 
13  says that this general thinking is global now.  The 
14  people involved in a global community discussing how 
15  to proceed with an ecosystem approach are converging 
16  to the view that we need to do it in an evolutionary 
17  process and it's not some revolution where we just 
18  throw out everything that's happened before.  
19            So that's not just the Vice Admiral saying 
20  that or myself or Jack.  It's a global sentiment 
21  that's evolved over the last couple of years.  
22            I do think we need to recognize that this 
23  evolution, as I said, has to progress within each of 
24  the sectors, including fisheries.  But it also has 
25  to progress for ecosystems as a whole.  
                                                      68
 1            I do think the Fisheries Sector is leading 
 2  the way with many examples.  More so today than we 
 3  were five years ago.  I certainly hope not as much 
 4  so as we will be in five years from now.  
 5            Again, a restatement of it's evolutionary.  
 6  I do think that we, as a community, need to take on 
 7  this agenda, to seize it.  Otherwise the critics 
 8  will beat us up with it.  So it's either use it and 
 9  be leaders in it, or I think it will work to our 
10  disadvantage as a community of people all with the 
11  same objective of moving forward towards a more 
12  wholistic common sense approach.  
13            Let me just skip to the next one.  I have 
14  way too many of them so I'll pass on that.  
15            I just want to say this isn't new.  You 
16  can actually go back to Spencer Baird's vision when 
17  the Bureau of Fisheries was formed in 1871.  It 
18  sounds very ecosystem-oriented.  
19            You can look at various planning documents 
20  and things that the Agency has done over the course 
21  of its history.  That is Spencer Baird's vision.  
22            Causes affecting the abundance of animal 
23  life in the sea and methods of regulation.  So these 
24  are concepts that people have been struggling with 
25  and making progress on for well over 100 years.  
                                                      69
 1            There's a recent call to action that 
 2  highlights this.  Spencer Baird wasn't talking about 
 3  an ecosystem approach.  He was just talking an 
 4  ecosystem approach.  
 5            Now, people are talking about it in 
 6  various documents, from the conservation community, 
 7  from the Code of Conduct for Responsible Fisheries, 
 8  the Ecosystem Principles Working Group, Johannasburg 
 9  World Summit on Sustainable Development, Pew and 
10  U.S. Commission of Ocean Policy.  So there's a lot 
11  of discovery and high-level call for this as a way 
12  forward at this point.  
13            What are they saying?  In fact, they are 
14  saying a lot of things that often lacks specificity. 
15  But there are always some constant themes that 
16  appear in every version of this; that is, consider 
17  trophic interactions.  Consider natural and 
18  anthropogenic environmental influences, that's the 
19  natural weather systems, climate systems.  
20            But also, we do this ecosystems through 
21  anthropogenic effects, which is nutrient loading.  
22  Stop externalizing your impacts.  If you do 
23  something to an ecosystem, you're responsible for 
24  the indirect things it does to the elements of an 
25  ecosystem that somebody else is interested in.  
                                                      70
 1            Clearly engage stakeholders in setting 
 2  objectives.  Certainly, we need to -- something 
 3  that's recognized in every discussion of this, 
 4  preserve options for future generations.  Don't do 
 5  things that are irreversible.  
 6            This specifically is the agreed definition 
 7  that NOAA is working with, it's the one that Vice 
 8  Admiral showed wasn't bullet pointed, but they're 
 9  exactly the same in terms of substance.  I do think 
10  it's important that we have something to ground 
11  ourselves in so we can read words that refer to 
12  these things.  
13            So what's happening now?  
14            Let me just quickly comment that I do 
15  think we have Fishery Management Councils are 
16  progressively applying an ecosystem approach.  I'll 
17  spend a few minutes running through examples, but 
18  really just having examples that are on the shelf 
19  for you to use.  
20            We do actually have four FMCs that are 
21  fulfilling -- or meet the congressional initiatives 
22  for ecosystem approaches.  We are developing 
23  decision support tools for helping with ecosystem 
24  approaches and we are, in NOAA, taking on this 
25  problem at a broader ecosystem level, which really 
                                                      71
 1  will be the focus of Jack Dunnigan's talk in a few 
 2  minutes.  
 3            Okay.  This just puts you in the context 
 4  of the NOAA effort, which Jack will talk about.  
 5  Again, the four goal areas and the specific one on 
 6  ecosystems.  
 7            The fisheries ecosystem approach is a 
 8  subset, or subcomponent, of this broader effort.  
 9            So today we have many examples where we're 
10  dealing with and taking account of environment and 
11  climate regimes in the fishery management process.  
12  Habitat affected by fishing.  Nonfishing impacts on 
13  living marine resources.  So that's the other side 
14  of the coin.  
15            Bycatch, endangered species, uncertainty 
16  in risk and science needs.  
17            The issue of science needs are very much 
18  embedded in something we refer to as IOOS, the 
19  Integrated Ocean Observing System, which is in fact 
20  an ecological component of that.  We actually saw a 
21  program in the program structure that Vice Admiral 
22  Lautenbacher showed you, lead by Steve Murawski.  
23  That's built on decades of living marine resource 
24  and ecosystem surveys.  The intent is to integrate 
25  this information, to expand, to fill gaps, to 
                                                      72
 1  modernize, to assure quality, to add to create 
 2  value-added products, all of these elements that 
 3  we're moving towards.  To do so with 
 4  state-of-the-art fishery survey vessels and to 
 5  commit to sustaining time series, which is music to 
 6  my ears since I've been involved in trying to keep 
 7  some time series going for most of my career.  
 8            This is part of the earth observing system 
 9  that Vice Admiral Lautenbacher mentioned.  In fact, 
10  he's a champion of and has been one of the creators 
11  of.  So I think we've got these things lined up and 
12  are working together towards this very big picture 
13  of IOOS for the earth, which is inclusive of a more 
14  specific element integrated into the big picture 
15  that deals with the needs for an ecosystem approach 
16  to fisheries.  
17            Just to mention, we are making progress.  
18  That is not a boat that got washed up on shore by 
19  the tsunami.  It's the launch of the OSCAR DYSON, 
20  which this is about a year old.  It's actually now 
21  owned by NOAA and making its way towards readiness 
22  to actually go on its mission.  
23            Next one.  We're not stopping there.  This 
24  isn't some old wreck in the yard.  That's actually 
25  the beginning of the HENRY BIGELOW, which will be 
                                                      73
 1  the second vessel off the line.  I think that 
 2  picture is several months old.  So it may actually 
 3  be starting to look like a real ship by now.  
 4            This is Henry Bigelow on one of the 
 5  earlier research vessels.  Looking like, with this 
 6  grimace on his face, like he's saying, when am I 
 7  ever going to get off for lunch.  
 8            Okay.  I just want to go through, I think 
 9  there are five slides.  You can just march through 
10  them.  This is one for the West Coast.  
11            Next one, more on the West Coast in the 
12  Northwest.  
13            What these are, are pictures 
14  characterizing the scale of the ecological observing 
15  system that exists today in the various data 
16  collection programs.  
17            They need to be integrated.  They need to 
18  be modernized.  They need all sorts of things, but 
19  they are not a trivial program.  Already they are in 
20  the category of hundreds of millions of dollars 
21  worth of investment, some cases with 20, 30, 40 year 
22  old time series, 50-plus, that are the basis for 
23  building this system.  
24            That's Alaska.  
25            What are we doing with all this?  
                                                      74
 1            The ecosystem approach in Alaska involves 
 2  all these creatures in one way or another.  It's 
 3  comprehensive.  
 4            This is just an example.  Alaska happened 
 5  to give me very nice graphics, so I'm using their 
 6  example.  But that doesn't speak to the substance of 
 7  the program.  They aren't any better or worse than 
 8  anywhere else, but they do have excellent graphics.  
 9            So the ecosystem approach of the North 
10  Pacific Council involves a total allowable catch 
11  lower than the biological limit that will be 
12  available for each of the individual stocks taking 
13  account of ecosystem interactions and building in a 
14  safety margin.  
15            It involves, again, this OY cap on all 
16  groundfish yields.  It involves protection on forage 
17  species, taking account of trophic linkages.  It 
18  involves bird protection for short-tailed albatross.  
19  it involves protection for stellar sea lions by 
20  eliminating the fishery within the grazing area or 
21  rookeries.  
22            It involves closures to protect habitat 
23  from trawling and various bycatch controls.  
24            Let's just go on to the next one.  
25            This just illustrates the difference 
                                                      75
 1  between the acceptable biological catch on a 
 2  single-species basis and the overall cap on the 
 3  total allowable catch.  
 4            This shows the various protective measures 
 5  geographically for stellar sea lions.  
 6            The next one is a particular area where 
 7  cold water corals have been identified and are being 
 8  protected by closures.  
 9            One more on Alaska.  This illustrates some 
10  of the technologies that have been developed to 
11  reduce or minimize the take of seabirds in the 
12  longline fishery.  
13            I think that's the last on Alaska.  
14            I now have many other examples for other 
15  regions, not going to go through them.  You can just 
16  skip through them.  
17            But they have lots of the same elements of 
18  what we saw in the Alaska.  Some of the graphics 
19  aren't as good, but lots of the same elements.  
20            The point is that everywhere in the 
21  country we can identify examples that are clearly 
22  part of the evolution of fisheries management to be 
23  more and more complete as an ecosystem approach.  
24            A lot of it involves cooperative research 
25  with the industry, such as dealing with TEDs, 
                                                      76
 1  dealing with bycatch reduction in fish, with 
 2  reduction of turtle catches in longline fisheries, 
 3  dealing with different options for types of hooks, 
 4  for baits.  
 5            This is being applied in both oceans at 
 6  this stage, both the Atlantic and Pacific.  
 7            Moving on.  Various studies which are 
 8  taking account of environmental factors into 
 9  consideration for setting management strategies for 
10  species on the West Coast where we have particularly 
11  strong climate driving forces and signals that are 
12  expressed in the biology of many of our resource 
13  species.  
14            Just keep on going.  
15            I did want to mention that it's not only 
16  offshore.  We have a big mission that deals with 
17  salmon, which is obviously an inshore issue that 
18  covers a great deal of the Pacific Northwest.  
19            We have a congressionally-mandated 
20  program, which really means Congress gave us two 
21  million dollars to do good things in terms of 
22  advancing ecosystem approach.  They did say it was 
23  specifically on the East Coast.  
24            I will mention that we are trying to 
25  enhance the ability for our councils to step up and 
                                                      77
 1  deal with some governance issues for an ecosystem 
 2  approach.  We are developing various technical 
 3  workshops to get managers and scientists to work on 
 4  various ways of using data and creating solutions to 
 5  some of our ecosystem approach.  
 6            We're developing specifically decision 
 7  support tools, geared towards very applied uses of 
 8  sciences to help people make decisions.  There is 
 9  more detail on that.  
10            Just skip over the next one.  
11            MR. HOGARTH:  Just a point.  There are a 
12  lot of people working with us on that.  
13            MR. SISSENWINE:  Oh, yeah.  
14            Well, this, I wanted to specifically 
15  mention, this is the one dealing with GIS, which is 
16  a partnership between a couple of councils and 
17  states and the National Ocean Service experts in GIS 
18  and NOAA scientists.  So that's a good one to 
19  mention.  
20            Key thing here is we want to get the 
21  science part and the management for us working 
22  together to avoid those sort of problems.  
23            Either the horse jumped, or he got 
24  overloaded.  Probably the latter.  That's Steve 
25  Murawski's slide.  
                                                      78
 1            Technical guidelines have been mentioned.  
 2  There is lots of people talking about them.  Lots of 
 3  people trying to follow up on the report to Congress 
 4  in 1998 or '99 that said we should develop these.  
 5            There are no technical guidelines that 
 6  have been endorsed or adopted by anyone within the 
 7  Agency.  There are some international ones that 
 8  we're building on.  But there's a real opportunity 
 9  for us to work collaboratively to create guidelines 
10  that we all think will work in the future.  
11            A key element in this, and this comes from 
12  the international community's view of how to make an 
13  ecosystem approach operational.  They refer to it as 
14  unpacking the high-level objectives.  Going through 
15  a series of processes that start with high-level 
16  policy objectives that might be set in law, to 
17  broader objectives, down to actually indicators.  
18  This is what we would have to need to indicate 
19  whether we've got it right or not in performance 
20  review.  
21            There are many examples of people working 
22  to do this and actually making good progress.  The 
23  Canadians under their Ocean Act have a very nice 
24  document they've recently issued that gives all 
25  sorts of examples of how they believe they are 
                                                      79
 1  unpacking their objectives to get to something 
 2  operational.  
 3            I think the Australians have done a lot on 
 4  this, too.  That really is mostly an example from 
 5  Australia.  
 6            So we need to learn from others.  We need 
 7  to collaborate.  The partners -- and that's Fishery 
 8  Management Councils and NOAA Fisheries and others 
 9  who are partners, need to collaborate with 
10  stakeholders.  So I do think there is some value, 
11  which I think Jack will also mention, of recognition 
12  that there is a difference between being partners in 
13  something as well as having a broader set of 
14  stakeholders.  
15            We generally need to move towards this 
16  operationalizing of these general concepts.  
17            I'll just skip over that.  
18            So I do think the Fisheries Sector has a 
19  lot to gain from this.  Fisheries, because fish 
20  species and protected species integrate everything 
21  in the ecosystem, basically everybody's a 
22  stakeholder, and that's what gives this community a 
23  lot to gain by an ecosystem approach.  Because 
24  they're a stakeholder for almost everything else 
25  that goes on.  
                                                      80
 1            Whereas the fishery stakeholders are 
 2  already pretty much at the table.  So I see there's 
 3  a lot more to be gained in terms of implementing 
 4  other things than there is in terms of worrying 
 5  about the oil and gas community telling you how to 
 6  manage fisheries.  
 7            You might be able to have some influence 
 8  on what the oil and gas community does in their 
 9  sector.  
10            Then I guess I'll throw out a new maybe 
11  theme that we might try to keep track of as we go 
12  forward on this.  Let's look for common sense, not 
13  nonsense, which is my last words.  
14            Thank you.  
15            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  We'll take a few 
16  questions, and then we'll take a short break.  
17            MR. FISHER:  Needless to say, I'm 
18  concerned about a system that would require 
19  integrity and honor, because I have neither of 
20  those.  
21            MR. SISSENWINE:  Can we shake on that?  
22  (Laughter)  
23            MR. FISHER:  I do have a question.  Have 
24  you gone through a process yet of identifying laws 
25  that may come into conflict?  And the one that comes 
                                                      81
 1  most to my immediate concern is that of, for 
 2  example, sea lions and protected salmon.  How do we 
 3  deal with that under an ecosystem approach, when we 
 4  may have laws that are in conflict.  Because 
 5  obviously with the Magnuson probably going to be 
 6  reauthorized, we have an opportunity to change some 
 7  of those.  
 8            MR. SISSENWINE:  Yes.  I don't know that 
 9  there's been a systematic approach to that.  I think 
10  that would be a reasonable thing to be done.  
11            There is certainly awareness of many of us 
12  of those sort of things, and actually, the growing 
13  issue of how to deal with fully recovered marine 
14  mammal populations, whether there's endangered 
15  salmon involved or not.  
16            We have had various discussions among 
17  ourselves as to how important these issues are.  
18            But the straight answer to your question 
19  is, I'm not aware that there has been any 
20  comprehensive analysis of all those issues leading 
21  toward proposed solutions.  But they're real issues.  
22            MR. FLETCHER:  Bob Fletcher, Sportfishing 
23  Association.  
24            Mike, the slides mentioning cooperative 
25  research, and on the West Coast we see a huge 
                                                      82
 1  opportunity for cooperative research in not only 
 2  gathering very important information, but also in 
 3  helping educate both sectors, the Science and the  
 4  Fisheries Sector, as to what their job is.  
 5            How do you visualize cooperative research 
 6  becoming a part of this developing approach of the 
 7  ecosystem approach?  
 8            MR. SISSENWINE:  Well, it needs to be a 
 9  part of it for a couple reasons.  One is the 
10  ecosystem approach clearly recognizes a broader role 
11  of stakeholders in the overall development.  It's a 
12  much more participatory approach than some of the 
13  things that might have been done in the past.  
14            Therefore, it lends itself to much more 
15  participation at all levels.  Not just coming to a 
16  council meeting, but in talking about how to analyze 
17  data and defining problems and defining solutions.  
18            I also think it's necessary because we're 
19  dealing with problems that need to be addressed that 
20  are not necessarily within the traditional bag of 
21  tools that our Fishery Science Centers have.  We are 
22  fortunate to have some expertise in gear technology 
23  that's been working on the longline/turtle problem 
24  with quite a degree of success.  
25            But I think overall we would quickly 
                                                      83
 1  acknowledge that our gear conservation engineering 
 2  technology, for example, to deal with bycatch issues 
 3  and habitat issues, is not one of the key elements 
 4  that we focus on within the Agency and that almost 
 5  all of these projects is cooperative research that 
 6  borrows very, very heavily from the investment the 
 7  industry has made.  So I'd say that the answer is 
 8  that it increases the need and opportunity both 
 9  because the degree of dialogue, stakeholder 
10  participation, shared responsibility is greater, and 
11  the nature of the problems we're dealing with are a 
12  broader set of problems, which in many cases -- at 
13  least in some cases, we don't necessarily have the 
14  experience and the pool of experts sitting on the 
15  shelf, and we need to work with industry to use what 
16  exists everywhere.  
17            MR. O'SHEA:  Thank you, Admiral.  
18            Mike, I'm going to ask you because it was 
19  on your slide, but maybe this is a better question 
20  for either Jack or Gary.  But you mentioned the 
21  pilot projects on the East Coast in the '04 budget.  
22            My understanding is a similar project for 
23  that type of line item in the '05 budgets were lined 
24  out.  I'm wondering, is that an implication -- what 
25  are the implications of that?  
                                                      84
 1            The other flip side is, if you all have 
 2  programs that are sort of relabeled ecosystems 
 3  approach, does that put them in jeopardy in 
 4  subsequent budgets?  
 5            MR. SISSENWINE:  I don't think there's 
 6  anything in jeopardy.  I think it would have been 
 7  nice to have another two million dollars in '05 to 
 8  build on the work that started in '04 -- that was 
 9  funded in '04.  
10            The reality is that the funds have been 
11  distributed in a manner so that we will continue on 
12  through most of this fiscal year in any case.  I 
13  would hope that we start to see some exciting things 
14  coming out that might draw some interest in Congress 
15  in investing it further for the next fiscal year, 
16  but who knows.  
17            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Why don't we take a 
18  seven-minute break and then we'll press through to 
19  lunch.  Okay.  
20            (Brief break taken)
21            VADM. LAUTENBACHER:  Okay.  Ladies and 
22  gentlemen, if we can take our seats and we'll press 
23  through to lunch.  We still have some work to do for 
24  this morning.  
25            Just for your information, three handouts 
                                                      85
 1  have been passed around.  First of all, you have a 
 2  copy of Jack's slides.  So you can have those for 
 3  your record.  
 4            Also, a couple letters.  We passed out the 
 5  Regional Fishery Management Council letter to me on 
 6  the ecosystem approaches to management, and also our 
 7  reply.  My reply, which I signed out a few days ago.  
 8  So you have the set of where we are here.  
 9            I really do think we are coming together, 
10  and I appreciate getting letters that we can respond 
11  to and provide a building of consensus inside the 
12  community.  So please, this is how we learn and how 
13  we develop and how we begin to work together better.  
14  So thank you for the input, and I certainly thank my 
15  staff for working hard on how to bring everyone 
16  together.  
17            The next presentation is from Jack 
18  Dunnigan.  As we mentioned, he's the Ecosystem Goal 
19  Team Lead, and royalty in the NOAA Family and the 
20  man responsible for a very, very huge task.  I 
21  really do appreciate him taking this on.  This is 
22  not an easy process, and certainly not within NOAA's 
23  culture, which I believe we are changing in a 
24  revolutionary way here.  
25            I appreciate the work that Jack has done 
                                                      86
 1  in bringing ecosystem approaches to our whole 
 2  spectrum of NOAA management issues.  
 3            So with that, let me turn it over to Jack, 
 4  who will continue on this morning's session.
 5            (Ecosystem Goal Team)
 6            MR. DUNNIGAN:  Thank you, Admiral.  Good 
 7  morning, everybody.  
 8            Let me first acknowledge, the handouts 
 9  that you got are courtesy of our wonderful Regional 
10  Office.  Bill Robinson, thank you.  Alvin Katekaru, 
11  the new Division Chief for Sustainable Fisheries, 
12  yesterday took our file and made these for you.  So 
13  I want to acknowledge that and thank the Regional 
14  Office for their assistance.  
15            My portion of the presentation today is 
16  not to talk a lot about what ecosystem management 
17  is, per se.  Mike hit on a lot of that.  
18            But my next piece of the puzzle is to talk 
19  a little bit in an organizational sense about what 
20  NOAA is doing and how we're organized to try to move 
21  forward.  
22            Of course, when we talk about the 
23  ecosystem we have an ultimate ecosystem.  The big 
24  blue marble.  Actually, this is very important to 
25  all of us.  Very important to NOAA.  This is the 
                                                      87
 1  scale of which a lot of the things that NOAA is 
 2  doing, IOOS, International Ocean Observing System, 
 3  are operating.  
 4            But that's not really the level that I'm 
 5  going to be talking to you about because what we're 
 6  talking about now within the NOAA strategic plan are 
 7  concepts of ecosystem approaches to management, and 
 8  the management responsibilities that we have under 
 9  mandates and drivers that have come to us from 
10  Congress.  
11            This is a little bit of a repeat from what 
12  the Admiral talked about this morning, but the 
13  ecosystem goal addresses that part of our mission 
14  which is concerned about protecting, restoring and 
15  managing the use of coastal ocean resources.  There 
16  is a lot in that sentence.  You can almost take any 
17  one of those words and we can have a 20 or 30 minute 
18  discussion about them.  
19            But protecting, restoring and managing use 
20  is important, and what we mean by both coastal and 
21  ocean resources is an important concept.  
22            Within this goal and the new program 
23  structure that NOAA is operating under, there are 
24  nine programs, and we'll look at that in a little 
25  more detail in a minute.  
                                                      88
 1            But what's important is that the U.S. 
 2  Ocean Commission of Ocean Policy has recommended a 
 3  whole new era for NOAA to move forward in leadership 
 4  of ocean agencies and communities at-large.  
 5            NOAA really is uniquely positioned because 
 6  of the mandates that we have, because of the assets, 
 7  because of our capabilities, because of our history.  
 8  Mike hit on some of the historical things that we've 
 9  been doing for the last 150 or more years.  
10            NOAA is really positioned to step forward 
11  here and become a leader.  The word "leader" has 
12  been very important to us as we think this way 
13  through.  It doesn't mean NOAA is going to be in 
14  charge of everything.  It doesn't mean that NOAA 
15  gets the final say or we get all the budget.  
16            But basically the whole concept of 
17  leadership is to help everybody to move forward, and 
18  you've got to be very strategic and careful about 
19  how you look within different ecosystem context, 
20  about what the requirements are, where the needs are 
21  and where it is that NOAA can provide that kind of 
22  leadership and help everybody to move forward.  
23            These are the nine programs that we have.  
24  The important thing about this slide that adds to 
25  what you saw earlier this morning is the coloring.  
                                                      89
 1  Seven of the nine programs that are contained within 
 2  the ecosystem goal are matrix programs.  
 3            What that means is they draw resources 
 4  from more than one of the Line Offices that are 
 5  within NOAA.  The only two that only draw resources 
 6  from within the National Marine Fisheries Service 
 7  are the Protected Species Program, Laurie Allen is 
 8  the Program Manager for that, and the Fisheries 
 9  Management Program, which I used to be the manager 
10  for, and Galen Tromble has taken over as I moved on 
11  to the ecosystem level.  
12            What we're really talking about for the 
13  goal, and the Goal Team, is a part of the whole 
14  planning and programing and budgeting process that 
15  we've been trying to move towards in NOAA.  
16            Somebody this morning mentioned, where 
17  does budgeting and programing now sort of fit 
18  together.  NOAA has a wonderful slide.  I don't have 
19  it in this presentation.  But you start with 
20  planning.  
21            For example, with the '08 budget process.  
22  We are going to start that on March 1st.  We're 
23  going to start with looking at our strategic plan.  
24  There's going to be a National Stakeholders Meeting 
25  in Washington, D.C. on March 2nd.  We will be 
                                                      90
 1  looking back at our strategic plan to say, what have 
 2  we learned in the last year, how is this changing, 
 3  what should we be doing in a planning context to 
 4  think of moving our mission forward.  
 5            Then after we finish planning, we'll get a 
 6  set of instructions that will come into the 
 7  programing phase, which is what we're in right now.  
 8  That lasts for about four or five months for all of 
 9  these programs.  There are 44 of these, by the way, 
10  in NOAA.  This is just the nine that are in the 
11  ecosystem goal.  
12            All of those programs will start taking 
13  the results of our planning process and begin to 
14  make that a little bit more critical and begin to 
15  identify where our major gaps are that we want to 
16  try to identify.  Major new initiatives for the '08 
17  process.  
18            That will then work into the next phase, 
19  which is budgeting.  That's about to start right 
20  now.  We're just about finishing programing in the 
21  '07 process.  We are about ready to start.  February 
22  1st we'll start budgeting.  That's basically when 
23  the results of programing have been presented to the 
24  Admiral, he has made decisions and he says in his 
25  judgement this is what NOAA ought to do for this 
                                                      91
 1  year, the '07 budget process.  
 2            The Budget Office will then take that and 
 3  work that into a budget submission that will end up 
 4  going through the Department and the White House, 
 5  comes backs to us on a passback, goes back to them, 
 6  and ultimately will become the President's budget 
 7  for fiscal '07 and that will be released in February 
 8  of '06.  
 9            Another idea -- I know we've been talking 
10  about this in MAFAC for years.  This is a huge 
11  cycle.  It goes on and on and at any one given time 
12  you're really in about four different fiscal years 
13  of trying to make these things work.  
14            The other thing that's important about 
15  this process is execution.  We in the goal and 
16  program structure are very critically important to 
17  the planning and the programing, and we assist in 
18  the budgeting.  
19            But once the budget comes back from 
20  Congress, which is where we are in '05, the 
21  execution is done at the Line Office level.  At that 
22  point we are working with the Line Offices to do 
23  program reviews, reporting back to NOAA on 
24  performance measures and that things that we're 
25  accomplishing.  But the Line Offices still have a 
                                                      92
 1  critical role in the overall process, PBBES, in the 
 2  execution side of the phase.  
 3            I wish I would have included that in the 
 4  slide because it helps to tell the story.  
 5            But that's sort of what the Goal Team does 
 6  and how we sort of fit into the overall process.  
 7            Now, as I said, we're about ready to 
 8  embark on the planning process for the '08 to '12  
 9  budget.  NOAA has a strategic plan.  It was done two 
10  years ago.  It was significantly redone in 2004.  
11  it's a much more concise and very visionary and 
12  strategic document right now.  
13            NOAA has a number of goals, four major 
14  goals that have been decided on the basis of what's 
15  important to society at-large.  Ecosystem is one of 
16  them.  The other three are weather and water, one 
17  for climate and one for commerce and transportation.  
18            For what we're working with in the 
19  ecosystem goal, this is our long-term goal:  
20            To protect, restore and manage the use of 
21  coastal ocean resources through an ecosystem 
22  approach to management.  We've added this "through" 
23  here to the statement that you found a little bit 
24  earlier.  So we're using ecosystem approaches to 
25  management.  
                                                      93
 1            And again, as Mike said in his first 
 2  slide, we're not just talking about fisheries here.  
 3  All of the values that society holds important that 
 4  are relevant to NOAA's mission are involved in our 
 5  ecosystem approach to management.  
 6            The strategic plan lists outcomes, long 
 7  term, where we want to be.  We want -- if you want 
 8  to think about the direction that all of this is 
 9  going in, we want healthy and productive coastal and 
10  marine ecosystems that benefit society.  
11            And we want a well-informed public that 
12  acts as a steward.  
13            In all the years we've been working on 
14  this, this is the kind of statement you would have 
15  heard from NOAA many times.  
16            I don't think you would have heard this 
17  one until recently.  A recognition that government 
18  can't solve all of the problems.  That what we need 
19  to have is a public that is engaged, that accepts 
20  the responsibility for the resources ultimately that 
21  they own.  
22            So our strategy to achieve this goal -- 
23  this is all from the strategic plan, is to engage 
24  and collaborate with partners.  Notice we have that 
25  right up front, to achieve regional objectives by 
                                                      94
 1  delineating regional ecosystems, forming regional 
 2  ecosystem councils and implementing cooperative 
 3  strategies to improve regional ecosystem health.  
 4            This is something that is going to get 
 5  rethought, frankly.  As we go into the planning 
 6  process with the '08 budget, this was written a year 
 7  ago and we were anticipating what we saw coming out 
 8  of the U.S. Commission on Ocean Policy, what we 
 9  heard from the Pew Commission.  
10            You can look at this and say, this doesn't 
11  talk about what kinds of councils you're necessarily 
12  looking at.  They can be done at various levels.  
13            I mean, at one sense, even at the NOAA 
14  level we need to have some kind of a regional 
15  ecosystem approach just to make sure that our own 
16  activities are integrated.  
17            But one of the things that I know we'll be 
18  doing, because we started talking about it, is to 
19  look at that and see whether or not that continues 
20  in light of the final decision of the U.S. Ocean 
21  Commission to make these into voluntary 
22  organizations that can facilitate processes to the 
23  extent that continues to be relevant.  
24            So as Mike said, this is the third time 
25  this morning that you've seen this articulation.  It 
                                                      95
 1  doesn't mean that we're being repetitive.  It means 
 2  that we're trying to actually be consistent.  
 3            But let me emphasize one of the things 
 4  that the other two speakers didn't, and that's this 
 5  included humans.  The Admiral usually hits on that, 
 6  I'm surprised he didn't this morning.  
 7            NOAA recognizes that the ecosystem is more 
 8  than just critters and physical processes, that 
 9  people are an integral part of that.  
10            If you look at that in the United States, 
11  127 million people, which is about 45 percent or so 
12  of our population, are living in these coastal 
13  counties.  So there is a very real tie, real nexus, 
14  between the people that we serve -- and this is just 
15  the continent.  
16            If you were to take Hawaii and Alaska and 
17  put them in the mix, too, I think you'd find it even 
18  more so.  
19            But just to try to make the point that we 
20  recognize that people are a part of the equation.  
21            Now, ecosystem management.  What does it 
22  mean?  It does mean a bit of a paradigm shift, 
23  moving from individual issues to looking at broader 
24  ecosystems, expanding the horizon that you focus on.  
25  Small spatial scales to multiple scales.  Short term 
                                                      96
 1  to long-term perspective.  Humans being independent 
 2  of ecosystems and humans being integrated with it.  
 3  The management and research being separated as 
 4  opposed to adapting new management as you learn, and 
 5  managing commodities to sustain production for the 
 6  long-term period.  
 7            So when you think about what ecosystem 
 8  approaches to management are going to mean, what 
 9  really it's meaning is just a new way of thinking 
10  about and looking at what you're doing so that you 
11  can get better results.  
12            Let me give you a real paradigm shift.  
13            This is the new boat.  This is the old 
14  one.  All right.  I can tell you from the two years 
15  that my wife and I owned this boat, this is a great 
16  boat.  It's a 27-foot Coastal Cruiser.  We had an 
17  unbelievable amount of fun on that boat.  That boat 
18  really helped us to do some of the things that we 
19  wanted to do in our life together.  
20            But we had ourselves a paradigm shift.  We 
21  went from this boat to this boat.  
22            What's going on here?  There are some 
23  things about this that are interesting.  Most of the 
24  people that I know who have powerboats use them to 
25  go somewhere.  There is a specific destination.  
                                                      97
 1            For some reason, with a lot of the friends 
 2  that I hung out with, it usually had to do with 
 3  prodigious amounts of alcohol.  
 4            But we got in that boat, and this is what 
 5  we realized.  We would get in that boat, leave the 
 6  dock in the morning and then we'd say, well, where 
 7  are we going to go, where is the place.  
 8            The more we talked about it, the more we 
 9  realized that the best time on this boat was when 
10  the engine went off.  We began to realize that this 
11  is what we wanted.  Then all of a sudden, it's not 
12  about where you're going, it's about how you're 
13  getting there and what you're doing along the way.  
14            That, I think is a little bit -- to try to 
15  make this somewhat relevant -- is a little bit of 
16  why this is relevant to us.  
17            You know, ecosystem approaches to 
18  management is not someplace that you're going to end 
19  up five or ten years from now.  It's a way of doing 
20  your business the minute the engine goes off when 
21  you get outside of the breakwall.  
22            Now, NOAA started moving forward this 
23  summer to try to do some things.  There was a 
24  reference earlier today to a workshop to be held in 
25  Charleston, South Carolina.  
                                                      98
 1            Coming out the NOAA Leadership Meeting 
 2  last May there was a question, well, what is an 
 3  ecosystem.  What is it we want to look at.  We had a 
 4  workshop at the end of August in Charleston, which 
 5  was co-chaired by Paul Sandifer and Doug DeMaster.  
 6  We brought in a lot of federal agencies to work with 
 7  us.  We brought in a number of people from the 
 8  academic communities and nongovernmental 
 9  organizations, from the environmental community, and 
10  we had a number of representatives from the states 
11  there as well.  
12            We listened to some presentations that -- 
13  mainly from Dr. Ken Sherman, who's been doing this 
14  work for NOAA out of the Narragansett Laboratory for 
15  decades.  He is really a world-acknowledged leader.  
16            We've learned to understand that large 
17  marine ecosystems have been looked at by the 
18  scientific community and they've come up with ways 
19  of characterizing them based upon common shared 
20  factors, factors like bathymetry, hydography, 
21  productivity and trophic interactions; as a 
22  scientific group at the global level that looks at 
23  these things and says, yes, there's enough common 
24  interaction in a particular area to label something 
25  as being a large marine ecosystem.  
                                                      99
 1            These are things that have been used by a 
 2  number of organizations.  This science is really 
 3  well established.  
 4            If you look at what the outcomes of their 
 5  science are, in the context of the United States, 
 6  there are about 11 of these large marine ecosystems 
 7  that they have defined around the country; the North 
 8  Atlantic Shelf, South Atlantic Shelf, Caribbean, 
 9  Gulf of Mexico, California Current, Gulf of Alaska, 
10  Eastern Bering Sea, and three up in the Arctic and 
11  then the Pacific Islands.  
12            Interesting point for NOAA here, all of 
13  these are related to coastal areas and land.  
14            Yet, we know that NOAA's mission is 
15  critical out here as well.  We know that NOAA's 
16  mission is critical out here as well.  
17            So the point here is that we're beginning 
18  to look at these, but what we're looking at is not 
19  ultimately going to be the one solution that will 
20  address all of the things that are important.  
21            We're not the only ones that are beginning 
22  to look at this.  In the context of the Integrated 
23  Ocean Observing System, IOOS, that Mike talked 
24  about, NOAA is looking to work with partners to help 
25  flesh out ocean observing, and they have been 
                                                     100
 1  looking at different ways of defining and 
 2  delineating what they mean by ecosystems.  
 3            What's interesting is that although they 
 4  have more subareas to look at, three on the West 
 5  Coast, two up here in the North Atlantic, generally, 
 6  things seem to be nested.  
 7            One of the things that came out of that 
 8  meeting in Charleston was this idea that ecosystems 
 9  exist at lots of different levels.  You know, what's 
10  relevant to deal with large marine ecosystems is 
11  fine, and yet for some things that are important to 
12  society, that's not the right level to look at.  
13            You need to look at smaller levels within.  
14            So if ecosystems are going to end up being 
15  nested, you can't just say, well, we're going to 
16  look at-large marine ecosystems and not worry about 
17  some of the smaller ones.  
18            We looked, for example, that once you get 
19  beyond the large marine ecosystem, what is next 
20  that's important.  There are large Estaurine 
21  Drainage Areas that have been defined.  There have 
22  been Fluvial Drainage Areas, which ultimately pick 
23  up the whole continent, and a n